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Interestingly enough I just happened to have invented an Ungimicked ID trick just last week. While messing with a deck I figured a method of vanishing the faces straight of a deck without any use of gimicks or preperation. You can even do it with spectators deck. As long as they have Bicycles (or you have mad card minipulation skills) you can do it anywhere anytime.

I think a verbal force is all good and well and may make us magicians sit back and think...DAMN that's good. To a spectator a verbal force an ordinary force or an ID will have the same effect on them..... depending on how it is performed. You have all seen how some performers use the peek to force and then constantly through the trick remind the spectator they "thought" of a card. When the spectator goes away they will tell people.."i thought of a card..blah blah blah".

If there is an ungimmicked ID out there that would be great.... but most magicians should be skilled enough to perform the ID and let the spectator inspect the cards. I don't really see this as the problem. Of course it means carrying two decks around with you all th time, which is the only possible slight problem i can see with it.

By the way if anyone has an effect as clean and straight to the point as the ID, but which uses an ordinary deck with no set-up, i would be very very interested to learn that trick. (if it exists at all)

king_of_keighley wrote:I think a verbal force is all good and well and may make us magicians sit back and think...DAMN that's good. To a spectator a verbal force an ordinary force or an ID will have the same effect on them

It's the thing that nips at our hearts so, so often: The Silent Agony of a Different Method. I got a RaMa deck (anyone know why it's a called that, by the way?) the other day. You can riffle your thumb down a corner and ask the spec to stop wherever they want; when they do that and take the still face-down card from the pack, you know what it is. Lovely. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Except... (Ugh! It comes - the Agony!) I can do that anyway. I riffle force all the time.
The Ecstasy: 'Ah, but this is different. It's happening a completely other way.'
The Agony: 'But, as far at the spec can see, it's identical. Utterly identical.'
The Ecstasy: 'You do this totally 'openly' and 'cleanly', though.'
The Agony: 'To the spec, my riffle force is 'totally open and clean' - I'm relying on it seemingly like that, in fact. The only way I can hit the spec with this cleverness - and have them know they've been hit by it - is if I revealed the method of the riffle force to them just so I could say, "Now, watch, you'll see I'm not doing that this time." Man, this hurts.'
(This isn't having a go at the RaMa deck, BTW - it has other things up its sleeve besides letting you know what card has been riffled to.)

Relatedly, for effect on the spec (rather than effect on the magician), I think the largest impact of a psychological force of ID magnitude would be if you really did explain what you'd done to the spec immediately afterwards. They'd then accept (if you wanted them to) that all the jiggery and every bit of the pokery you subsequently did was accomplished by clever psychology, not by naughty sleights. That's misdirection on a scale that brings tears to your eyes, isn't it? Just imagine a group of specs not burning your hands - scarcely even bothering about them - because, to try and work out the method, they are listening so avidly to every word you say.

there are several methods of an impromptu ID, some very good ones mentioned in a Lewis Jones tome..

unfortunately for all concerned, i cant remember which one...it is possibly in the limited edition forces book that was put out by Alakazam...

i'll get back to you tomorrow, i shall have to check through all three books...

I bought the ID and was extremely pleased with what i got. I would also like to get into the kind of verbal force thing

A tip is if you want to do the same but are scared to get it wrong infront of a spectator than why don't you practice on them without them knowing. use the ID but try and verbally force the card you want. If you fail to do so, you still win because your using the ID. No one will ever know!

Surely the most obvious 'ungimmicked ID' routine involves a forced card.

Which in turn completely abondons the idea of the ID - the point is to allow any card to be the wrong way in the deck!

I'm just saying that for people that want to perfect their verbal forcing like myself, they can use the ID to practice while still getting it right! So total embarrassment is not an issue!

why is it assumed that in order to perform an ungimmicked ID you must force the card?

I think the idea of it happening in the spectator's hands is much too overstated. The spectator sees the same result, whether it be in yours or their hands.

if you want ungimmicked, perform it as usual. When they say the name whip out your stacked deck..

Or you know, you could just carry around 52 decks.

You cannot overstate "in their hands enough" in my opinion. I have converted complete sceptics just because I let them shuffle a deck and pick their own card and mix it back into the pack. OK, so not an invisble deck, but you see where I'm coming from. I do not touch the pack at all, it is merely a vessel for them to identify with the effect

You have no idea what is to happen and see a sponge ball put into your hand and can keep it there squished up tight.
When you open it and there are two, three, maybe 20! you are dumbfounded! It has magically appeared in YOUR hand. The magi did not touch your hand. OK, so you may know how the above is done but imagine for a second if not.

have a look at Mark Wilson's Double Thought Projection, that's totally un gimmicked and has a finish similar to the ID.

I was recently shown, a trick, the end effect of which is pretty close to an impromptu ID, which was Jerry Sadowitz's "Named Card Triumph". It is very clean.

Its in one of his books "Cards on the table" i think.

[quote="magicmonkey"]I have converted complete sceptics just because I let them shuffle a deck and pick their own card and mix it back into the pack.[quote]

Good point, some illusions are made for spectator interaction and are highly valuable. I just don't see the point in forcing something that isn't made for that and stands alone already.