talkmagic.co.uk

Wukfit wrote:

Cardza wrote:
Let me put it from a different angle: you work something out an effect from a DVD. You don't buy it. This is theft. Not physical theft as we tend to define it, but you have not paid for the right to use it. That's clear?

So let's say you buy this DVD instead. You have paid for the right to use that knowledge. You then sell it on and recoup some of the investments, which effectively renders the original purchase void. The right thing to do is to cease performing the material for yourself.

With regards to giving it as a gift the creator is losing out on a sale while more people are making good use of it, effectively for free.

That's the thrust of my point...is that clear now?

Man you have issues.... how do manage to walk the streets without worrying about paying for what you may see or learn....

You morals are great and I applaude you for them, unfortunately you either live in a different world from me.. or you are a hermit cause if I worried about such things I would go mad

Have a great Christmas and a Happy new year

The applause is appreciated - but the long and short of it is I don't have issues, I'm not a hermit and I don't walk the streets thinking like that - I don't know about you but I don't see DVDs of magic videos being played in shop windows, extracts from the latest books plastered on walls...

My thinking like this only really applies to magic, where things are a lot tougher for the creator.

I am quite normal, I assure you!

S. Lea wrote:

In doing this he is recouping most, if not all, of the money he spent on it in the first place. The other person is paying for it, and thus has the right to use it.

In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.

This 'logic' is bordering on bizarre. Given the benefit of the doubt, we can say it's confused. The dvds/books do not contain 'knowledge' they contain information. Knowledge is what you have after you have mentally processed information. A DVD or book gives the owner the potential of acquiring knowledge. Once you have this knowledge you no longer have the potential to acquire it. Thus you no longer have the original benefit of the product.

You can not steal the knowledge because it is yours, and earned legitmately. You can not steal the information because you bought it legitmately. You can not steal the right to use knowledge because it is yours. You can not steal the right to use information because you bought it fairly.

About the only illegitimate thing you can do is make illegal copies and sell them and thave nothing to do with stealing knowledge or information.

Stop playing damn word games, start thinking from a moral perspective.

Heck, is knowledge the end product of information? What is knowledge? Yada yada yada.

Technically it is not illegal to share a book or video.....in the magic world, it is a moral issue more than a legal issue! With that said, he is no longer using them, so it is not a two for one type of deal, secondly, they are free, so no money is being cheated from the originator........and like I said, it is more a moral issue than legal......do you feel comfortable taking them, and is it for the right reasons? Or are you taking them because you can cheat your way out of paying for things you were already planning on buying anyway.......if it is the latter, then don't take them, if the former, In my opinion it is just fine!

So lets say my house gets burgled, and mymagic DVDs are stolen. I claim the money back from the Insurance company. Personally I wouldn't re-buy the DVDs as I have already gained the knowledge from them..

I have made money from the insurance company, so am I not allowed to perform any of the effects anymore?? hhmmm


I agree only with the simple statement that material shouldnot be illegally obtained through file sharing networks or by asking how effects are done or through free magic sites etc

Butif I see a demo on a legit site and I work outhow it is done through coincidence and logic more than trying to work it out, I would not have any moral issues regarding performing the effect. I know there are certain handling tips on that DVD for instance but I wouldnt know what they were and would beusing my own created presentation and technically, not having bought the DVD its not 100% that I am even using the same method!! So how can I steal information I dont actually know the 'true' contents of.

If someone gave me a bunch of magic DVDs Id take them on the understanding he purchased them and they were a gift.I would use the effects and me personally, my onlt moral obligation would beto make sure I purchased myself another effect from the creator of an effect I used, as kind of my own way of thanking him

To Quote Mark Lewis "Morals are an overrated thing I gave them up years ago"

This is a diffrent debate to getting stuff for nothing of emule I feel. And a double edged sword I probley do the same thing as I.D would do buy some new effects. Probley wrong but I know how to do the effects all ready so why stop doing them? I have paid once.

Anyhow would i perform something I can work the methood out for? I dont think i would, people have to eat and if they try to earn a crust from magic who am I to take that away from them.

The finer points of the argument is over my head I will freely admit but my 2 cents are , and I think we have lost the main thread here if they are being giving to him and the money has been paid already why not.

If you found a load of magic DvDs in the street would you take them or leave them? You would take them.

What you do do, don't do, would do or wouldn't do is all down to your own morality.
The distribition of any copyrighted material is illegal wether for free or not.
But like ID I too work out some effects just by watching the demo video, and not by sitting down and trying, sometimes it just seems obvious. I'm sure your all the same. That creates a dilema for me.

Stop playing damn word games, start thinking from a moral perspective.

Heck, is knowledge the end product of information? What is knowledge? Yada yada yada.

Knowledge is what you have at the end of learning and reasoning. There is no "yada yada yada" after that.

You have come on this forum and put forward a moral argument. The minute someone challenges your thought process you accuse them of playing word games. It is suprising that you instruct him to "start thinking from a moral perspective" when that is patently what he has done. Surely what you mean to say was "stop discussing moral arguments and start spouting kneejerk moral reaction."

It's interesting that you take such a strong moral position that "only really applies to magic, where things are a lot tougher for the creator." And then take umbrage when a creator appears to disagree with you.

If you are really worried, take the books/dvds and then find the authors and creators and send them a bit of cash when you can afford to.

copyright wrote:

Stop playing damn word games, start thinking from a moral perspective.

Heck, is knowledge the end product of information? What is knowledge? Yada yada yada.

Knowledge is what you have at the end of learning and reasoning. There is no "yada yada yada" after that.

You have come on this forum and put forward a moral argument. The minute someone challenges your thought process you accuse them of playing word games. It is suprising that you instruct him to "start thinking from a moral perspective" when that is patently what he has done. Surely what you mean to say was "stop discussing moral arguments and start spouting kneejerk moral reaction."

It's interesting that you take such a strong moral position that "only really applies to magic, where things are a lot tougher for the creator." And then take umbrage when a creator appears to disagree with you.

No, actually, it's because all the comments about knowledge completely miss the point.

Going on about the difference between knowledge and information IS playing word games and IS missing the moral point of it all. It's quite simple:

When you pass on the learning materials you SHOULD cease performing them yourself otherwise the number of DVDs that have been sold is not equivalent to the number of people performing the material. This is where the tangles seem to have come, and I.D. no, of course you shouldn't have to rebuy them because you are not at fault. You have to put these things into context.

Anyhoo, I wish I'd never taken part in this damn thread. You can continue to have a go at me, frankly I've better things to do so say what you like, in the words of the Dragons "I'm out".

frankly I've better things to do

If that's true why did you put off doing them to make that reply?

All you've done is express the same opinion over and over. The minute someone takes you seriously you through it back in their face. More fool them I suppose.

Cardza wrote:Going on about the difference between knowledge and information IS playing word games and IS missing the moral point of it all. It's quite simple:

When you pass on the learning materials you SHOULD cease performing them yourself otherwise the number of DVDs that have been sold is not equivalent to the number of people performing the material.

Utter rubbish.... what a strange way of looking at things, I can't think of any other senario that someone would even begin to take that sort of view and I see no reasoning to suggest it should apply on this subject.

i think this is a very basic question, rather than all pick holes in each others moral ideas and views, lets just stick to the question and maybe pm people if we all feel so mortally offended by one anothers semantics...

anyway, yes, i feel its fine that you use and keep these materials as long as you dont copy and flog on any of it...

learn from them, enjoy them, practice, rehearse and perform and be magical...

its the same as if your father has "handed down" his favourite magic books to you...my view anyways...enjoy the magic...

I think this topic has gone way to far and over the top. I think people should just cool it down a bit. Me personally if someone offered me a few videos because they dont do magic anymore i would take them. What is the point of throwing them out when someone else can get alot of use out of them. I think as long as you keep the videos and dont sell them on as soon as you have aquirred the knowledge i think that is fine. It would of course be a different story if someone else obtained them illegally and then wanted to pass them straight on to you after they memoriszed the knowledge within. Just my thoughts.

Amen to that !

I personally can't see what all the fuss is about. Take them as a gift and learn all you can, practice hard and perform with confidence.