talkmagic.co.uk

[Please forgive me if this is an old question, it hasn't been an easy topic to try to find using the 'search' function]

As my title suggests, I'm a bit puzzled as to why the mentalism area of the forums is restricted and would love to hear some thoughts on that.

From my point of view, mentalism is one of the various forms of magic. Indeed, many traditional magic effects have a subtext of mentalism (just about any card location could be seen that way for instance) or can be presented with that implication according to one's tastes.

So why is there no similarly restricted area for coins, or for cards, only open to those that have shown serious interest in that form of magic? Why is mentalism the exception?

Other than the sharing of secrets, which understandably belong in a separate forum (which already exists), I just can't quite see the reason why mentalism is treated as this special case.

I really don't mean this to sound quite as ... almost confrontational... as it seems to, I'm simply interested in the rationale.

Actually, there are quite a few restricted areas on the forums - they just don't have dedicated sections for specific places. They're more all-encompassing, and thus a dedicated section hasn't been created for cards/coins/etc. Another reason for it, I'm assuming, was to cut down on clutter (magic cafe ring a bell?).

The mentalism section was created by request, and was not originally a part of the forums. There are a number of working professionals on this forum, as well as others who are very serious and devoted to the practice of mentalism. The demand arose - and the section was born.

There might be other reasons, but those are the two main ones, in my opinion.

It's actually quite nice. We get e-jackets to wear when we go in. They're tweed with nice suede elbow pads - very swanky. We mostly sit around in large wingbacks, laughing - saying things like "pish posh" (at least the Brits do) and "I knew you would say that, because I'm a mentalist".

I'm not querying the existence of a mentalism forum, rather the fact that it seems oddly elitist to make it 'restricted access' or more accurately invite only.

While I agree with you that magic cafe has way, WAY too many catergories, I think a little more specialism in categories here would be a good thing. But not with this 'restricted access' proviso. It seems odd to me that working pro/proficient card magicians - for instance - have to 'slum it' with the less experienced members (irony) but mentalists give the impression of being 'above' an open forum.

As I've already said - there are restricted forums where the exact same things go on regarding other areas of magic. It just doesn't say "card/coins" on the door.

Thanks for replying.

But the very POINT is that it doesnt say cards/coins on the door. Those forums you're talking about are specifically for the discussion of secrets, methods, techniques, call them what you will.

If that is ALL that is discussed in the mentalists invite-only forum then sure, it should be restricted. Maybe that's the case, I wouldn't know. I just think that, as things stand, it looks a bit odd and elitist. As if mentalists feel they don't want to sully themselves with people who do sleight of hand.. it might interfere with their billets after all!

I believe that it's a strength of these fora that people of all skill and knowledge levels interact; I believe it benefits both the experienced and inexperienced. And yes, I suppose I feel irritated that I can't read and contribute to discussions on an area in which I have more than a passing interest. Here, I can do so regarding cards, coins, sleights, gimmicks, theory, psychology, performance... but not on this one specific area of magic and illusion.

Have you met Craig Browning???

::hears a rimshot off in the distance::

Again, I think you're missing my point. I've been here a while so I'm not exactly sure I remember what's OPEN and what's restricted? For instance, can you access the Techniques/Research & Development/Routines forums? Those are forums created specifically for people to discuss the very secrets you are mentioning. If so, then perhaps that can help make more sense of this?

If not, perhaps start a discussion on the opinions section about it? Who knows, you might just get the ball rolling!

I think it's a fair question about the mentalism forum. I've always been slightly suspicious that the main reason it exists as an invite only forum is so that some people can post there without being othered by opinions that they don't like.

There are some products out there which, if posted on the open forums (and I'm not accusing anyone), could quite easily end up in the wrong hands, and as these are open forums it's best to keep related principles as quiet as possible.

Their promises of miracles lure all and sundry in, but some of these people will be those who aren't ready for them yet; there's no special gimmicks or gaffs, no sleights or finger-flicking - just ingenious structuring, linguistics and presentational subtleties. They either dismiss them but have a mangled understanding of the workings of the effect, or attempt to perform them but aren't in a position yet where they could pull them off.

Please note that I am not saying that if you don't have access this is you! Rather that there are some people, by the very virtue that they have just begun learning or that they are of the wrong mindset, who would not be ready or right for them.

The Mentalists area is just a place where we can discuss these products as well as talk about some of our own creation and applications of various principles of mentalism.

But couldn't there be a forum for mentalists who aren't as gifted as those who are in the restricted mentalists' forum? That way inexpereinced mentalists could talk to each other and some other more experienced mentalists in a forum that was devoted to them (the unexperienced mentalists).

monker59 wrote:But couldn't there be a forum for mentalists who aren't as gifted as those who are in the restricted mentalists' forum? That way inexpereinced mentalists could talk to each other and some other more experienced mentalists in a forum that was devoted to them (the unexperienced mentalists).

It's not so much to do with how gifted you are (I think you may mean knowledgeable?), but a dedication to the art; a respect and an understanding of and for the various principles involved and a willingness to consider other uses for them.

It all depends on what we mean by mentalism here; if we're talking about things like the ID/BW or card revelations then that's not really what gets discussed there.

I guessing what gets discussed there is a lot of Derren Brown-esque stuff, mind reading, palm reading, tarot cards, ESP and stuff like that. Am I somewhat on mark?

monker59 wrote:I guessing what gets discussed there is a lot of Derren Brown-esque stuff, mind reading, palm reading, tarot cards, ESP and stuff like that. Am I somewhat on mark?

Those are the general ideas naturally, it's the principles behind them that's the focus here.

It's not so much Derren Brown as it is Knepper, Banachek, Corinda, Cassidy, Young etc. etc.

When I said Derren Brown-esque, I didn't mean Brown specifically but other mentalists that I unfortunately don't know the names of. I'm not as experienced with mentalism as I'd like to be and I think a small section for magicians coming into mentalism would be a good forum idea.

misterblack wrote:I'm not querying the existence of a mentalism forum, rather the fact that it seems oddly elitist to make it 'restricted access' or more accurately invite only.

Elitist is only your perception, being on the outside. It's a place where mentalists discuss their ideas and methods openly, and toss them back and forth, so it can't be in the open forum any more than Techniques or Top Secret R&D could be out here.

Clarification:

1. NONE of the restricted forums contain secrets, methods or exposure. The nature of them is purely for discussion and sharing of ideas.

2. The mentalism area is the start of many, we had to start somewhere. If we'd have started with 'coins/cards', then the same question would have arisen.

3. Due to the nature of mentalism, i.e. most of it is thery-based, even discussing techniques in public areas could tip the gaff on many effects.

4. Membership is exclusive, and by invitation only. There's nothing elitist about it. And please, people, don't ask for access... it's a 'community' vote as to who gets invited—as with all of TMs restricted areas.

5. If you feel you deserve to be invited, then you're misjudging the purpose of the restricted areas—as anyone who has access will confirm. It's not a Mecca, or trove of secrets. It's just a separate community—a kind of 'VIP' room—where we can more openly discuss magic without the leechers, casual browsers, and riff-raff. And no—just because you've not been granted access DOESN'T mean we're calling you leechers, casual browsers or riff-raff. But take a look at the state of the open forum and the amount of rubbish we get through, and you can see the point.

6. Please don't accuse the mods/admin of favouritism. The choices are made with responsibility, and as much diplomacy as we can. And generally, invitations are made to regular, solid contributors. It's not so much we feel people will 'fit in', it's usually more likely that we feel people will benefit from what's in there.