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Craig Browning wrote:

queen of clubs wrote:

themagicwand wrote:Anybody ever seen a ghost?

No. No one has ever seen a ghost.

A rude and point of personal opinion vs. fact based experience.

I didn't think it was rude. I was just deliberately misinterpreting his question. "Anybody ever seen a ghost?" lent itself to a dual meaning and it was a red rag to me

Craig Browning wrote:Not all hauntings are readily explained away nor replicated. Same goes with other paranormal scenarios. The "skeptic's culture" however, singles out only the one's they can explain away and quickly shifts focus when it comes to those situations they can't write off (frequently seeking to discredit the person or persons supporting the original tale).

I've always found it amazing how all the Skeptics strive to grab headlines with their prejudice and boasts...

I write the following with a great deal of respect, so whilst we disagree fundamentally, please don't think I'm trying to argue with you, or annoy you - I'm just trying to debate with you.

You're actually the one with the bee in his bonnet about those of us with differing opinions. You say you've "always found it amazing..." etc., and that doesn't surprise me, because it's in your nature as a believer in supernatural topics to always "find things amazing" where other people might prefer to rationalise.

It's all very well to develop the point that "Skeptics" (and thanks for apparently considering that a proper noun, by the way! Flattering!) seem to always cling to the cases they can prove to have rational explanations and rarely mention all those that they cannot, but I'd rather say "I honestly don't know what the heck happened, but it definitely wasn't a ghost" than allow the seeming lack of a rational explanation further cement a belief in ghosts.

Think of it this way, you're basically saying that the cases of ghost sightings that are unexplainable by scientists go some way to prove that when people die, something called their spirit comes out of their corpse and floats around conveniently resembling their prior physical body yet translucent, and incidentally appears to sometimes be able to speak without vocal cords, move without inertia and think without a brain. I'm sorry, but that, to me, is far more of a leap of faith than a skeptic or cynic who can't explain something yet won't accept the above.

You know what? I really hope that there's no such thing as ghosts, because I can't imagine anything more crushingly dreary than to be consigned to the fate of being stuck purposelessly drifting from room to room in the general area of my death for eternity. I wouldn't even be able to thow myself infront of a speeding lorry to end it all, because aside from the fact I'd already be dead, the bloody thing would just pass right through my non-form.

queen of clubs wrote:
It's all very well to develop the point that "Skeptics" (and thanks for apparently considering that a proper noun, by the way! Flattering!) seem to always cling to the cases they can prove to have rational explanations and rarely mention all those that they cannot, but I'd rather say "I honestly don't know what the heck happened, but it definitely wasn't a ghost" than allow the seeming lack of a rational explanation further cement a belief in ghosts.

Think of it this way, you're basically saying that the cases of ghost sightings that are unexplainable by scientists go some way to prove that when people die, something called their spirit comes out of their corpse and floats around conveniently resembling their prior physical body yet translucent, and incidentally appears to sometimes be able to speak without vocal cords, move without inertia and think without a brain. I'm sorry, but that, to me, is far more of a leap of faith than a skeptic or cynic who can't explain something yet won't accept the above.

Very well put, and i for one share this view.

I'm still open minded enough however to realize there might be a miscule chance that such things as 'Ghosts' do exist because if i were 100% sure that the spiritual world could defiantly not exist, that would be truly ignorant, due to a definitive answer being out of our grasp at this time.

Ok let me clarify a little something... though I have belief I am not a dye in wool gullible follower. I am very much a Skeptic and I've reached most of my conclusions by being in the field getting my hands dirty by doing actual investigations vs. reading books and attending lectures by those self-made intellects who more or less chase the media more than the facts.

In the case of Hauntings & Ghosts, I do not believe they are all souls damned to roam the earth, I prefer the Bonewits perspective; that most of what is seen and classified as a Ghost sighting is just a snap-shot of sorts -- an instant in time that certain people and situations tend to "harmonize" with and thus, cause some kind of "shimmer". But then I know that 90% of such sightings are explained by imagination going a bit rampant vs. something actually being there. I also understand that there are other elements that need to be looked at such as the electromagnetic energies surrounding the location, building structural issues, building materials, etc. In other words, there's a lot to discount before you can lend support to such things. So please don't categorize me in the niche where "Fools" tend to dwell, I'm simply not that gullible.

Many of the investigations I've been involved in stem from requests by family members who are concerned about a "Reading" given by another area Psychic that centered on a curse and a very expensive course of removing said curse... the dark spirits in the home, etc. This is something I've written about extensively in that this is the kind of charlatan I go after; I don't waste my time being a jerk and saying it's all fake, etc. I go after the criminals that prey on the public... not the soft targets either!

Out of dozens of investigations I've had two that rang true... something was present that could not be readily explained away. In such cases I will typically call in a local Shaman to work with the family in dispelling said energy or at least learn to not fear it. Neither I nor the shaman see any cash for this sort of work in that we believe it is an obligation i.e. being our fellow's keeper and all. The charlatan on the other hand would nickel and dime the poor victims to death. What I find even more revolting about this sort of thing is the fact that most of the con-artists using this ploy are of the same ethnic background e.g. they know the cultural superstitions and how to use them against the patron... most patrons not trusting those outside their race and cultural/religious groups, which allow the predator to essentially get away with their terrorizing for decades even generation from generation... they can be very scary people.

As a Skeptic however, my mind tends to be open enough (and educated enough) to see more than one side of the issue. Though I can explain away most of the phenomena I encounter there are times when that's not the course that need be taken; sometimes you have to knowingly employ a bit of theater so that the placebo effect HELPS the victim. Simply because nothing else will work. This is where the Cynical mind can be cruel and seriously trite in that few cynics have it within themselves to RESPECT the beliefs of others and thus, have no qualms when it comes to berating and making fun of them. The learned Skeptic on the other hand, will weigh the "faith" factor and look at how cultural and religious based influences are so entrenched in the victim's mind that using that faith related element is the only way to help them get out of the fix they are in e.g. we arrange for a Cleansing Ritual... I've gone so far as to have long discussions with the victim's priest and gotten their support so that a sense of validity exists within the mind of the person dealing with said "Haunting" or whatever it may be.


I know I've gone a touch off the trail here but it's important that you understand where I actually come from and it's certain not from either end of the pole in which "extremes" exist. As best I'm able I stand in the middle on all issues in that this is where I tend to find the more reasonable semblance of truth.

Well, I am rational, mentally healthy (sober, at least) and also skeptical. However, I've actually seen two things I cannot explain satisfactorily or scientifically, and therefore I can only use the term 'ghost' for them.

The first and most vivid was as a child, when with a bunch of schoolbuddies we wandered out into Weston Wharf (Weston Lullingfields, near Baschurch, Shropshire) to the site of an abandoned trade canal which was to link to Ellesmere.

What we saw—all four of us—was a figure dressed quite smartly with a flat 'farmer giles' type cap, which walked straight towards us in an open field, and quite literally disappeared after walking out of sight behind some trees. Fearing it was a farmer and we may well be trespassing, we fled to safe ground. This was in broad daylight.
Hours later, whilst walking home inside the walls of the abandoned (dry) canal, we once more saw the figure ahead of us—stationery this time, but very clearly visible. However, this time we didn't flee and instead we carried on walking. The figure walked up over the bank of the canal and into the garden of a ramshackled abandoned cottage. At which point, there was no further sign.

The cottage still stands to this day, and in later life we discovered—according to the local 'Domesday records'—that the canal was employing travelling 'romany' types to carry on the work, and a 'gypsy curse' had been placed on a local family by the mother of a labourer who was 'hunted down and brutally beaten' by the locals because he got one of the village girls pregnant. She died a horrible death during childbirth, but the child survived (nothing more known). However, during her pregnancy, the 16 year old girl was said to be locked in the top room of the house with bars at the window and the door sealed, as 'peculiar events' surrounded her after she was cursed.

The book described the labourers and their families abandoning the project and leaving, having lost one of their bretheren, and after placing the foul curse.

Hence, the canal was never finished:
http://www3.shropshire-cc.gov.uk/roots/ ... ra_u03.htm

The father of the child's name was never known, but he was allegedly buried in the banks of the canal. Right near the house where the woman he got pregnant died in childbirth.

And it turns out that the house where she died, and where the man was buried, was the ramshackled house we saw him disappear into.

Of course, nobody believed us until years later when in our teens we managed to borrow the Domesday book from the church, and our story matched so closely with the tale in the book.

The reasons why the canal ceases near that cottage are unknown, but I've a pretty strong feeling that I know... because of that curse!



THE SECOND sighting I have which has no explanation was near Kynaston's Cave in Nesscliffe—a stomping ground of mine when I came of drinking age.

For info, if you're bored, read here: http://www.showcaves.com/english/gb/mis ... eston.html

Anyway, the local pub, The Three Pigeons, was our watering hole. A few times we drank ourselves senseless and camped in the cave—impossible now as it's gone all touristy and is sealed off.

Anyway... the site of the caves is off the beaten track, and the cave is about 20 feet from ground level up some sandstone steps. Camping in there was dangerous, but great fun.

The night in question we were drunk-ish (I say that, because we were coherent enough to know what we'd seen). We'd lit a campfire in the woodland below the cave, and as I recall we were cooking cheapo sausages on skewers.

A mate suddenly piped up and say words to the effect of 'Effing nora, did you see that?', and he pointed out into the woods. What we saw was the back of a woman, dressed in what could be described as a wedding dress without the veil and train. We watched her walking into the woods—with literally only moonlight giving her visibility to us. Now, bear in mind that this was near the end of the year, probably October/November time, and we were struggling to stay warm in coats with a campfire, then you can see how this is an oddity.

We have no explanations for this, and we still speak about this when we meet up to this day, as there's absolutely no way on this earth that we saw a 'real' person that night.


This is why my two tales convince me even more: they were group sightings, and far more than tricks of the eye. Although the stories have become faded in my memory, the events were both strong and vivid enough for me to recall them perfectly.

So yes, I do believe in what I saw, but not in ghosts—or 'apparitions'. Contrary, possibly... but because I have no explanation, I can't give a reason logically for what I did see.

And no, I'm not easily fooled etc. and these tales I share with you because they *did* happen. They're not something I boast/brag or try to share outwardly as 'ghost sightings'... they are just a part of my past.

If I *COULD* explain these things, I would.

Just to point out that there is a difference between "ghosts" and "spirits".

Ghosts are like video recordings of something that happened a long time ago. They are the kind of thing that are reported by various observers over the years, and generally do exactly the same thing. So a classic white lady walking down a corridor would be a ghost. You cannot interact with it, it has no intelligence, it is just like a recording being played over and over again. Sometimes refered to as "residual energy".

Spirits are the energy of deceased people who have passed over to heaven, summerlands, rainbow bridge etc. They return to earth to communicate with the living, and if you ask "Is there anybody there?" will reply (in theory) by knocking or something. These rarely manifest in classic ghost style but usually only make noises or touch people or produce spirit lights etc.

There. Hopefully that's muddied the water.

themagicwand wrote:Just to point out that there is a difference between "ghosts" and "spirits".

Ghosts are like video recordings of something that happened a long time ago. They are the kind of thing that are reported by various observers over the years, and generally do exactly the same thing. So a classic white lady walking down a corridor would be a ghost. You cannot interact with it, it has no intelligence, it is just like a recording being played over and over again. Sometimes refered to as "residual energy".

Spirits are the energy of deceased people who have passed over to heaven, summerlands, rainbow bridge etc. They return to earth to communicate with the living, and if you ask "Is there anybody there?" will reply (in theory) by knocking or something. These rarely manifest in classic ghost style but usually only make noises or touch people or produce spirit lights etc.

There. Hopefully that's muddied the water.

That is of course unless you're speaking of The Ghost Whisperer or a couple of the more interesting (I'm not allowed to say what just yet) Seance manifestations soon to be hitting the market (just in time for Halloween... how convenient... so save up guys and ghouls, the one piece I know you're going to want will probably cost more than the Swami did... Oops I dropped a hint...)

Oh! One "correction" here Paul... there are terrestrial bound souls, which is what people like the character in the aforementioned TV series tends to deal with; entities that still have work to complete or else they either don't recognize that they have passed or hold a huge grudge and refuse to cross over until they get their revenge... this latter be classic to the more terrifying haunts of Europe's Castles and scenarios here like the Bell Witch and more than a few theater houses about the globe. These are the one's that typically require "cleansing" or an "exorcism" and sent into the light so they can be recycled (the cosmos have been recycling things for a lot longer than we've even had the idea of doing such... but that's another story altogether).

Of course if you've been around this stuff for any extended period of time the water don't get as muddled as you may have expected, old bean.

being an amateur astronomer ive seen one or 2 things such as strange moving lights, which i know full well are not planes, satellites, planet, asteroids or anything else of the sort (especially 'ball lightening... the expert explanation before scientists could even prove it existed that one always kills me - explaining something mysterious with something mysterious ).

one involved what looked like a star. this star didnt shimmer like a star would, in fact looking at it you could tell it was no star. whatever it was had attracted my attention, as it travelled in a straight line like a satellite, then without slowing to stop, reverse a short way then made a sudden halt. the telescope would have taken too long to set up and align, so out came the trusty binoculars. what i saw, albeit not as magnified as it would be through the scope, was very far from a star. it wasnt a small bright pin prick of light, nor was it helicopter lights. it was a white phosphorscent looking orb, of definite round shape.

after a awhile of observing it doing nothing, i put down the binoculars, and simply observed. some time after it shot off, at speed (maybe four times its previous speed? there was certainly a marked difference) from a dead halt (no accelaration) then simply vanished!

like i said ive seen a couple of things in the sky like this, but all i can say is they were just ufos. whether they were secret military planes, alien spacecraft, etc isnt for me to guess at. knowing my luck maybe it was just a weather balloon haha

Nope, but ive encountered many a spirits!

I have and it was dreadful. No way did Whoopi Goldburg deserve an oscar for that role.

greedoniz wrote:I have and it was dreadful. No way did Whoopi Goldburg deserve an oscar for that role.

Oh I love "Ghost"! The scene where we first encounter Whoopi Goldberg's character is hilarious as it reminds me of a few people I work with professionally. Plus Demi Moore looks cute. Plus I originally saw it at the cinema (a place where people used to congregate to view "movies"), and watched it through a haze of cigarette smoke (mostly mine). That was before they made self-indulgence a crime. Good times good times.

joelhall wrote:one involved what looked like a star. this star didnt shimmer like a star would, in fact looking at it you could tell it was no star. whatever it was had attracted my attention, as it travelled in a straight line like a satellite, then without slowing to stop, reverse a short way then made a sudden halt. the telescope would have taken too long to set up and align, so out came the trusty binoculars. what i saw, albeit not as magnified as it would be through the scope, was very far from a star. it wasnt a small bright pin prick of light, nor was it helicopter lights. it was a white phosphorscent looking orb, of definite round shape.

after a awhile of observing it doing nothing, i put down the binoculars, and simply observed. some time after it shot off, at speed (maybe four times its previous speed? there was certainly a marked difference) from a dead halt (no accelaration) then simply vanished!

That's nearly identical to what I saw, almost move for move...

themagicwand wrote:

greedoniz wrote:I have and it was dreadful. No way did Whoopi Goldburg deserve an oscar for that role.

Oh I love "Ghost"! The scene where we first encounter Whoopi Goldberg's character is hilarious as it reminds me of a few people I work with professionally. Plus Demi Moore looks cute. Plus I originally saw it at the cinema (a place where people used to congregate to view "movies"), and watched it through a haze of cigarette smoke (mostly mine). That was before they made self-indulgence a crime. Good times good times.

That wasn't cigarette smoke man, that was Ectoplasm!

I know, it used to flow freely from my nostrils and mouth as well... made everything I viewed a bloody haze (but seeing through blood shot eyes probably didn't help any).

I refer you to my post in your previous thread where I said..

I unmistakably saw my friend get his head kicked in by a poltergeist.

I saw a 'ghost' thing throw a wooden box my way on a building site..

and there was one time a 'white misty hand' grab my arm when there was no one around in at least 10 yards...

Plus I often see things in mirrors that shouldnt be there.

Last night, when writing the above I felt cold a chilly and I heard footsteps.. speaking of footsteps..

Another time I was sleeping over at my Sisters.. and in the middle of the night I heard something creeping up, sniffing me and laughing and when I looked round the room was empty. This repeated for about an hour.

I never knew of anything but apparantly it was Albert.. an old resident poltergeist playing tricks on me as it was the first time I had stayed over there..

I also once saw someone in a pub loo.. sitting on the toilet door wide open.. fully clothed.. eyes closed, just sitting there. I was sitting not far from the toilet with friends.. he never came out after me..

Then I overheard a coversation about the pub being haunted.

There has been numerous other experiences but I cant 100% put it down to a supernatural cause... although science wont convince me either..

Im more a sceptic of science than supernatural stuff.. I believe in demons but do not believe in ghosts. I believe in creation and completely refute evolution. I trust my senses and often ignore what the eye sees.

I.D wrote: I believe in creation and completely refute evolution.

You know what I think? I think (quite genuinely) that the earth was populated by aliens. I believe that we are the sons & daughters of spacemen! Certainly it would fit the bill in all the Abrahamic faiths, and if jesus wasn't half man half alien I don't know what he was.

I could ramble on for pages about this particular pet theory of mine, but I won't bore you with it. All I would ask is that you think about it whenever anyone mentions the "star" over Bethlehem, the virgin birth, the visiting angels, etc etc.

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

What I think is great about this thread, is the fact that both believers and non believers in ghosts etc, are saying they have seen things which they cannot explain, apart from calling them ghosts. Unlike other threads, this has turned one where people can write about their experiences, as something that happened, rather than using it as an argument for or against anything.

I don't believe I have seen that on a topic of this sort before, on any magic forum.

Thanks all for an interesting thread.