talkmagic.co.uk

Is there really a need for magic forums any more?

Aren't we all fed up with re-hashing answers to the same old questions?
Let's face it, there is more than enough information spread between forums, that a joint archive would be a better idea. Take only the posts that give information, deleting all those with arguments or off topic comments. Have that forum locked once all the information is in there, with an index, where people can find the information they require, without repeat thread after repeat thread.
Is it just me that finds forums are beginning to be more of a social function, rather than producing anything constructive?
Why do we need a forum for that? Why not just use one of the many other methods of contacting each other that exist on the internet? There would then be no need for all the ***** when trying to explain something, which we have at the moment. No mods will be required, so we can write what we wish without interference from the heavy mob.

New forums are created, start to get new members, (though mostly people who already belong to other forums.) then end up with about a post a month, dieing a very slow and painful death. The bigger forums get, the more likely you will get arguments, as there are more people with differing views. People then get fed up with those arguments and either leave or stop posting. Yet they won't go to a smaller forum, where people are more interested in creating a good atmosphere, rather than complaining and arguing. Why don't all those that complain about arguments just go there? Why stay on larger forums when you know you will keep getting annoyed because you disagree with what is being said?

The only magic forums that seem to succeed are the exposure ones. Maybe that is the way to go, if we want forums like this one to do more than churn out the same old answers to the same old questions.

Do those that have been members for a long time feel that there isn't much new to be learned from a forum, that you couldn't find out from here if you could be bothered to take the time to search for. Remember, the search doesn't just include the forum, as many people just don't bother to Google for it, waiting for others to do the work for them.

Do new members just come on here to just to find out what they can, rather than wanting to be active members? If so, just having a locked magic related archive would benefit them more. they then don't have to wade through garbage and arguments to find what they need for them to become better performers. How many are put off posting? Either because of the comments made, or by the fact that it is the same old people posting, which seems very much like a clique?

Why is it always the same people who post anyway? Is it because we know that magic forums are coming to the end of their usefulness in their present state, but can't accept it would be fairer to put them out of their misery?

How do members new and old feel that new members are treated? Some of the worst arguments are with members who join, then post something others don't like, who then gang up on the "newbie."
Or are you fed up with reading that you MUST introduce yourself, or are called a secret grabber? Maybe you just didn't phrase a question exactly right, only asking for advice, yet everybody jumps on a thread, telling you to p*** off, we don't give secrets away. Are you given a fair chance I wonder.

There is much more that I can say about the inevitable death of magic forums such as this one, but will leave that until you have actually given it thought, rather than starting to flame me because of the subject. maybe if you spent a bit of time distancing yourself from the forum, looking at it in a non-emotional way, you will then be able to give an honest answer, ( whether you agree with my comments or not) rather than an emotional answer that doesn't actually have any facts in it.

No flames here, good sir...

I think these forums are incredibly helpful. Yes, there are times when it is more a social chat than a forum dedicated to magic - but that's really an inevitable eventuality with any forum, isn't it? If we just came on and posted only ideas, and didn't interact, would any of us still come here day after day? I wouldn't.

As far as serving a purpose - I have made incredible contacts through magic forums - had the opportunity to actually converse with legends and major inspirations to me, and - best of all - I do believe I've made a number of genuine friends in the process.

Those friendships have also created some of the strongest ideas I've ever had. My collaborations and conversations with EckoZero, for instance, have propelled my thinking and performing to levels unknown. I am also incredibly honored that some of my thinking has helped Ecko create what I think will be an incredibly powerful mentalism act. As well, I have two concepts that are being fleshed out and road tested over that past few months. While I can't speak for Ecko - these are concepts and ideas that I don't think I would have come up with, had TM not been here.

If it wasn't for Seige paying me a nice compliment on a card effect, I wouldn't have bothered putting together my card magic manuscript.

Talk to Abraxus for 5 minutes - and try to tell me being a TM member isn't worthwhile. Read posts by Tomo, MagicWand, Seige, Mandrake, Beard, PartTimer, Ecko, Queen, Lady of Mystery (the list goes on, my apologies to those I left out - just making a point here, folks!), and just TRY not to type out a pm to discuss things further with them.

If it wasn't for this forum - I wouldn't have a way to speak with people like Craig Browning. If it wasn't for magic forums in general - I wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak with Richard Osterlind!

Yes, we get grumpy and act like a gang when we sense someone is just trying to snatch and grab - but for the most part, I think TM is incredibly hospitable, and the members are friendly and eager to speak with and help out newcomers.

I see what you're saying in your post, and I do think there are forums out there that are exactly as you describe - but I don't think that all-encompassing view includes TalkMagic. We are far more open and collaborative, and friendlier than other places (partly the reason why I really only come to this forum anymore).

We have pretty good numbers - and we have many opinions in here. I've gone head to head with a few people in here - but, barring one occasion, I've never seen any behavior changes outside of the original debate. The biggest problem I've seen with forums is the moderators. Here, we have a great group of guys who don't play favorites, don't mess around - and allow us far more freedom than I've seen elsewhere. As they clearly respect us and our opinions, I feel that respect has been returned in the form of our general behavior in the forums. As far as "heavy mob", again - I have to say I have never seen that here. Our mods are incredibly fair and open to discussion.

I would say that TM is the exception, not the rule - but I still think there is merit to these kinds of forums. Having an archive is very cool and all that, but I think having the opportunity to speak with the person whose work you just read, is far more rewarding. Case in point:

I wanted ideas on color/personality reading. Rather than troll through the internet, checking all over the place - I went to Craig Browning. As anyone knows, he's pretty much THE go-to-guy. In just a few hours I was given all of the information I needed. An archive could have given me the same info - but actually talking with the man made my search a thousand times easier.

I do not share your opinion that these kinds of things will inevitably die. This is a natural progression of what has been in place for hundreds of years. Before the internet, groups would gather all over the place, talk shop, trade ideas, learn and create new effects and methods. The internet just took the place of the local bar (pub, for my friends in Europe). The only way I see this kind of thing dying, is if we find a new, more efficient way to do it.

I don't think I can ever get tired of discussions. I rarely even perform card magic in public anymore, but I could talk card magic until I pass out. I have no problem saying that I have just sat at my computer refreshing the forum every few minutes in order to read a response in a particular conversation. No conversation ever bores me - and, like everyone else, I can find something new to be learned - even if it's the hundredth time I'm talking about it.

It's little things like that, which make these forums worth having. Yes - we sometimes get sidetracked. We like to play word games and talk about video games - but those little "breaks" make it more fun (for me, anyway). I wouldn't trade the TM forums for the largest archive of magical information the magic world could hope to create. The best investment I've ever made in my "magical" studies - is the investment of time on these boards.

I don't think you should expect flames. Elsewhere - perhaps - but not here. I pose a question to you, now. Instead of offering more details and thoughts on what you feel is killing these kinds of forums, do you have ideas or thoughts that can improve them? Is your only desire to have the massive archive you spoke of, or did you have a different kind of thing in mind?

Hello, hope its not too soon to be joining in (although i have said the obligatory hi and hello )
Well as a newbie this is the only mgic forum that i "belong" to, although different genres of forums in the past. I think all forums tend to be the same, with familiar faces posting regulalrly and new poeple joining, never to be heard of again (although i'd like to think on a magic forum they might just be hidden somewhere untill needed ) Its happening with many forums at the moment that ive belonged to.
I've lurked for a month or so, reading most of the forum threads and for me, nothing seems like the same stuff because its all new.
I do worry people may automaitically see me as a newbie, and a female and older and automaitically dismiss my true enthusiasm to deveop this art as someone looking for a quick trick to do on a hen night.
Anyway I'm glad this particular forum is here and you all seem like jolly friendly nice people (please delete as appropriate).

More of a rambling response, sorry.

F x

Thanks for the replies. I don't want to answer them yet, but will do later in the week.

This may be of interest.

These figures are from UK Magic forum, which lists the total posts made each month. I did belong to it, but stopped as it was in a different format to this forum. It was more a list of posts, which could become confusing, as the answer to one question may have been after another question had been answered. I would be interested if this is still the case and whether this may be the reason for the figures below. Maybe a case of not changing the format with the times?

I won't put the first months total, as they were just starting and it may not be a full month. I have only taken down the months where they had under 100 posts.

2002
September 99

2003
September 40
October 92

2004
September 98

2007
October 66
November 92
December 93

2008
May 60
June 75

September seems to be a trend, maybe just because of people being on holiday.
The 2007 and 2008 figures are worrying though.

Hope that helps explain part of the reason for this thread.

I think that the forums work brilliantly for what they're for. Yes you do get new commers asking the same questions but is that really a problem? People come into magic and don't really know where or how to start so they ask for advice from people who do know. They might get nudged towards an old thread but at least they're getting that nudge that they're looking for.

I've found TM to be a fantastic place, if you're a memeber of a magic club perhaps it's not as important to you but I don't have the time to get to a club so TM is the only contact I get with other magicians. It's great to throw my ideas out and see what people think of them as well as reading other peoples ideas and views and learning from those.

TM has given me the inspration and much of the knowledge that's let me go from a few card tricks for friends to what I'm doing now.

If there wasnt forums you couldnt have asked this!

The forum is a fantastic, vibrant, living community. Or club, if you prefer. Especially important for those of us who can't get out and about to many places, or don't know many people (for whatever reason).

In the old pre-internet days, it never even occurred to me that there was such a thing as "the magic community". And there was certainly no way to become a member of it, unless you had some personal connection to a working magician or magic shop owner. Now, with a little bit of searching, you can meet other people who speak your language.

I think we've got the balance just about right here between being helpful and welcoming to earnest newcomers, and not blabbing secrets all over the place. And also between serious discussion of magic and social chit-chat. (Any living group is going to include plenty of chat; it's what people do and how they bond.)

I think it's fine as it is.
Rehashing old threads isn't the worst thing in the world.
Schools don't say to the kids, "oh this stuff has been talked about before and it's been written up loads of times. go look it up."
I like the "community" that is on here.

Please remember I have not aimed this as a specific discussion about Talk Magic, in fact, there isn't any forum name given in my origional post.

Look at the wider picture with magic forums and decide what you see happening.

Remember, I haven't been "TM Bashing."

No one has accused you of TM bashing - but when you ask the question about the relevance of magic forums, naturally we're going to talk about the forum we're currently on...

Your numbers seem to back up your side of the story, but that's only one site. A place like the magic cafe can get more posts than that in a day. TM numbers are much higher than that. A new forum will take a while to get going. If it doesn't take off quickly, many people will lose interest. That's one of the drawbacks to the "internet generation". People want instant gratification - and when they don't get it, they move on. However, that's hardly an indication of impending doom. It just takes time to grow a community. TM has seen a major surge in activity and participation - much of which was brought about by new members.

At the time of writing, according to the data on the front page,

Our users have posted a total of 236584 articles
We have 12057 registered users

There was a time not too many years ago when one new post a week was considered hectic!

It's difficult to be impartial about this but from my very occasional meanderings elsewhere, there seem to be a lot of similarities, no doubt due to them being Magic Discussion Forums and also sharing many of the same members. There must be a particular aspect of each one which appeals otherwise they'd go down the pan very quickly - perhaps one has an active trading area, another may have a huge database of topics, yet another may be shovelling out secrets like the world was about to end. Horses for courses in many respects.

To some extent, it's hard to imagine how magic would have progressed without modern technology of swift communications, cheap and easy production and distribution of effects and ideas but on the other hand it also means that the world and his dog can be in possession of what used to be closely guarded secrets. Forums are part of that change, whereas we try to keep the secrets to ourselves as much as possible, we all know how easy it is to Google for just about anything. Fortunately Googling requires some enthusiasm and effort so not everyone will be downloading stuff. Perhaps the strength of Forums is that, once basic confidence in new members is established, there is a sharing of help and advice which wouldn't have been possible 15 or 20 years ago outside of Magic Clubs and Societies?

One more thing to throw into the mix.

I would ask you to look at the heading you most often use, whether it is Miscellaneous or another one.

Imagine if the ten most active posters were to stop posting. Not only would their posts be lost, so would all the responses to those posts. If the number of posts and topics fall to the stage where there is not much new, it isn't long before people start seeing it as not being very active. If they feel there isn't going to be much chance of having their questions answered, they look elsewhere instead of posting.

I believe that if just the 10 most regular posters in each section stopped posting, this forum would take a long time to recover, if at all in it's present format. With a membership of 1000s, that should not be the case.

Although I have used TM in this instance, this would apply to most, but not all, magic forums.

Some may actually be too big and have too many posters to be able to get, or give, the information or answers that are required.

Forums are usually what the members make of them unless you're on something like the 'E' forum who apparently remove any negative posts that aren't to their own liking.

You'll always have some people that post and some that lurk and I don't have any problem with either.

Personally, I don't see them changing too much in the future.

as a newbie myself, to magic and this forum, i also agree that TM is more than friendly.

As long as nothing REALLY stupid is asked eg "How is this trick done?" and forum ettiquette (excuse the spelling) adhered to eg using the search button, i dont see any reason why this site and forums in general cant be healthy.

No doubt new tricks and routines will continue to be released and require reviewing, more pro's will give talks and lectures which can be talked about and as new members get more experienced, they will be asking different questions and evetually (hopefully) asking for advice on their own tricks / gimmicks / routines.

Long Live TM!

i use three...

one for potential exploration of ideas and getting things proof-read and similar...

one for keeping in contact with guys i wouldnt be able to otherwise and ask questions to the wider users on subjects im interested in - it has a wider core membership..i like it for that and use it quite often...

and i use this place really, as more of a social fun kinda thing...it was the first site i ever joined for magic, and even now after a couple of years, i try to help out, so i put back what i got out of it originally...

most places are what you make it really...

if it's ok to name them, I'm sure it'll be modified if not, i'll try and explain it..

alchemy moon - set up by the creator of sanctum 2, but its mainly for creation of effects and is alot smaller than most places, and is only active occasionally...

the magic cafe - there's too much going on, but i've become friends with a few people over there who give me good in the field pro advice on stuff im working on - and from an american point of view, i've found there's quite a difference in some respects...greg arce, jerome finlay and maybe half a dozen more i can class as friends now, which is lovely...

and here, good old talkmagic...- i left for a little while to really kncukle down on performing and sorting out ideas for 3 months or so, maybe longer...but i came back, cos i realised i genuinely liked most of the people around...i may not talk to some for months, but hopefully they know im around to chat and help if i can...or at least ramble at them and maybe something may stick...

but i am genuinely very fond of a few people on here, i do class them as proper mates...I'm even fairly fond of lomster when she's not being so damned sexist all the time...

when i first started here, i kinda used the place as a brain dump of ideas, alot where quite shakey, but i got encouragement and kind words - which made me work and apply myself harder...

without this wishing to sound harsh, if ever anyone ever gets bored of these places - LEAVE!

it's that simple, if you find yourself coming back, you need to ask yourself why...and accept that reason...

i was a member of a private kinda forum for mentalists, but chose to leave that one, cos inbetween everything else, i didnt have enough time to give the place the respect it deserved...a couple of people didnt see it that way wierdly enough - but that's definately their problem, not mine...

oh and im occasional moderator on paul brook's forum too...