talkmagic.co.uk

Duplicity wrote:So then, the vitriolic posts have died down. Apparently the hobbyists can be just as awful as the pro's can be. If they use cards that is.

Ultimately - this "discussion" is fairly pointless, as its now about "mosts" and "just about alls". So therefore, just an opinion (even though written as "a fact".).

When do you know that you've turned pro? When you can look down your nose at others i guess.

Okay - the bit above was boldened by me to give my next bit a context...

It's always been about the 'mosts'. Nobody edited their posts after you took them to task. Nobody has backtracked or back pedaled from their initial standpoint or muddied any waters. If I wanted an argument, I'd suggest that you either hadn't read the initial posts or had set out looking for a fight. But I don't want an argument, and so won't even consider suggesting such a thing.

I think the issue here is as follows:

1. Most magic is painfully dull when presented simply as tricks.

2. There are more magicians working with cards than with anything else.

3. Therefore, there are more painfully dull card performers than in any other genre of magic (although I'd personally argue that most of today's big-box illusionists provide the equivalent of a Horlicks-valium cocktail...).

4. Bad card tricks are very much a cliche of the bad magician stereotype. So much so, that many excellent performers play on the fact, making routines as chaotic and haphazard as possible in the knowledge that it's all nonense anyway and that audiences are much more interested in having fun than finding the seven of diamonds (David Williamson immediately springs to mind).

But yes, I understand the value of cards - they take up precious little pocket space, audiences immediately understand what they're looking at, and a small handful of sleights provides amunition for a wide multitude of routines and effects. But in presenting a card trick, you're immediately competing with all sorts of stereotypes and associated rhubarb in the minds of the spectator.

Okay, I'm off to the fridge for encore de bierre pour Pierre...

Oh I can't read through most of this so I skipped a majority of the posts sorry if I am going to repeat some. Will this debate never die. The fact is a good performer is a good performer and people will want to watch. Does not matter if it is card magic or mentalism. Unfortunatly there are more bad magicians then good magicians. But that actually works for me. Many times after I have performed (usually card magic, but I vary it up) for lay audiences I hear, wow he was so much better then that guy at the restaurant that time, and way better then uncle Nick.

And believe Peter when he talkes about pity applause it seems he is quite well versed in it, I can only imagine why? Sorry Peter I don't really mean it, I just couldn't help myself.

PCwells - my point was more that even though "technically" some points were made and written in the style of being factual - when they are nothing more than opinions. As well as being dressed up in a (s)cowl of the aged and supposedly knowledgable.

My point was, and is this - we can all agree that any effect from any medium can be presented in a dull, and unoriginal way...

"here we have an ordinary deck of cards, each one is different..."

At that sentence, the audience should leap up as one, and pull that person apart from limb to limb. However, some people (as im sure you do) work very hard indeed on presenting magic in varied and unique ways.

So yes, some of us will feel sleighted (ho ho ho) when the indirect suggestion (a la Kenton Knepper) of previous post have said far more than the actual words have. Subtext said something more as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway - back to the ACTUAL question and purpose of this thread. When do you know you've turned pro. A repeat booking is always an easy one - especially from a business. When you have your own set, each effect a personal tweak, a presentation that's you and that all of it flows from one effect to the next. Allowing for engagement, entertainment and magic.

There are lots of good and bad professionals. Mainly thats down to a mixture of arrogance, stupidity and laziness. Avoid those three things, and a professional you shall be.

That even rhymned.

EDITED - the irony of a duplicate post!

This topic has managed to digress farther than I had ever anticipated. But in this whole 'card magic' sux ordeal, I'd like to say something, that being, regardless of what kind of magic you do, mentalism, coins, cards, stage, hoops, socks, pubs etc etc. If your audience dosen't tell you you're one of the best they've ever seen then you, in all probability, didn't do your job well enough.

People these days aren't fools they know when you pull out a deck of cards it isn't magic its sleight of hand. You can either sell it to them as 'yes it is sleight of hand, but look its so cool to watch that card do the braue pop up at the end of the ACR, HA ! bet you didn't see that coming' Or you bring mentalism into the mix and do a stigmata or whatever. Routine, Patter, selling yourself......thats what matters !!!

Card magic has to evolve. You cant do the same tricks for a 100 years and expect people to buy it over and over again. Its the people who repeat tried and tested stuff because its just that, these so called magicians use it as a fallback. Or kids just starting out learn 5 moves and get into this whole new "street magic" culture, and start doing cards for random people messing it all the while, short selling the tricks, dropping cards, doing moves before they're ready etc etc. And then you have the internet and youtube and all those websites involved in "training"

Lets not forget what we all got into this for, it wasn't the money, lets face it............ it was the reactions and the kudos

I have been doing card tricks for 50 years. And in fact I would say that I have earned 70% of my living doing nothing but card tricks for around 40 of those years.

After reading this thread I have decided that my entire life has been a waste of time. Pity I hadn't found all this out a bit earlier.

Its depends what you mean by a pro....some on here will say a pro is being a skilled magicians, whos practiced and practiced the same routine for years, until its so polished its like seoncd nature....others may say its working vegas for 15 years straight and goin to dubai and touring with your own show....and some of us will say its paying the bills? So it depends on how you look at the word pro....you can say your a proffesional brick layer, because it pays the mortgage, however if you cant lay them straight, then I would say thats to proffesional either? I think its differs for different people, if you see yourself as a pro, then you are, dont care what others think or say.....If your conducting yourself and your performance and getting paid, in a proffesional way, then id say thats when you become a pro?

But thats just me talking rubbish.

Magic Chris,
It's not just you talking rubbish, at all!
You make a great deal of sense in your post.
(Besides putting this discussion back on track!)

From Collins On-Line English Dictionary:

professional ADJ
1 of a profession
2 taking part in an activity, such as sport or music, as a means of livelihood
3 displaying a high level of competence or skill ⋄ a professional and polished performance
4 undertaken or performed by people who are paid ⋄ professional golf
professional N a professional person

amateur N
1 a person who engages in a sport or other activity as a pastime rather than as a profession
2 a person unskilled in a subject or activity
amateur ADJ
doing something out of interest, not for money

WOW It seems that one person on this page refuses to stop beating this dead pony and the rest of us more or less agree on both, what a "Professional" is and where the whole "cardician" issues lays in the real world (and sorry Mark, selling Svengali decks don't count... you're cheating )

FIRST... I think duplicity needs to get a real life and maybe go into either law or politics given his penchant (and need) to nit pick. If you believe playing cards and card tricks the Holy Grail of magic, then go for it! I wish you the best of luck

PC... you couldn't have said things better or in a more concise way, I not only applaud you but must agree that 99% of the furniture movers (Grand Illusion) out there are just as bad it not worse. But then Max Maven pointed out the fact over 30 years ago that Good Magic was like Good Sex... Just Harder to Find


Chris... you are close but like many, semantically off by a few hairs. People not only confuse but deliberately split the proverbial hair when it comes to being a "Professional" at the vocational level or a "Professional" via attitude a.k.a. Professionalism. I know many enthusiasts out there that don't make a penny doing magic that have a far more superior "Professional" attitude about their work than a large ratio of those getting paid for doing tricks. I also know of a most unfortunately element within the business side of our craft that believes it's perfectly right to not only undercut their fellow performers AFTER they've brokered a deal, but even go out and obtain what is needed for replicating another person's act so as to do so. Though such are the slime of the earth a good number of them pat each other on the back for being "good business minds"... I guess all is fair when it comes to suppressing the ladder climbers whilst sustaining the game players


I'll admit that I was the one that put out the whole playing card issue, not expecting it to turn into such a school yard roundy-round. I believe my original suggested laid more along the lines of encouraging our original poster to not be limited to just card magic and LEARN MORE, and I likewise attempted to explain why. At no time have I ever said Playing Cards are "bad" only that a.) the majority of people that do card magic are terrible at it and boring as all get out; and b.) far too many people in the magic world have a sense of addiction when it comes to them, which in my mind, means trouble -- extreme limitation for that individual in that they refuse to step away from that particular comfort zone and explore the rest of what's out there.

Where am I wrong, encouraging such, and more to the point, how does that say that all card tricks are stupid? (especially in that I have pointed out many times, that I do use card effects with fair frequency).

Anywho... my role in this world now days is that I was a professional in the world of magic for over 35 years and now (to confuse things a tad) I'm semi-retired and thus, work as a semi-professional Mystery Entertainer from time to time and a writer, pretty much full time

Craig Browning wrote:FIRST... I think duplicity needs to get a real life...

Why is it that whenever people can't think of a decent retort on a forum they accuse the other person of not having "a life", whatever that even means? Surely that's hypocritical, since you're the one who's here all the time posting massive, sprawling, opinionated essays several times a week and Duplicity, whoever he is, is relatively new here and doesn't even post too often.

Anyway, kisses to you Craigster, since it's Christmas; Pick an argument, any argument...

In between being a proffessional buffon, and full time magic type idiot. I freely admit i do not have a life. If only others had the decency to admit that too the world would be a better place. As for my work in politics, well - if only i was that morally bankrupt. And i've never developed the taste for satsumas and coat hooks.

Anyway, all i can say is, that I'm rather jealous of the "Craigster"'s kisses from such a young lady. Apart from that, it's the nine of clubs that you will find soon under your table - possibly whilst learning a Jay Sankey effect, or trying the original and often uncredited Lennart Green Top Shot cut.

All the best to you all who have taken part in this "discussion" in an open minded, and intelligent manner.

Oh dear, yet another one.....