talkmagic.co.uk

Following a request from Siege I am not taking the discussion away from the E.C. page. Although I was really hoping that we could get the number of pages up to 5 for that thread.

Anway time for a rant. Where to start? I am not totally sure where this will go it may not make complete sense. A stream of consciousness if you will.

Incidentally this was born from the E.C. thread and people rabbiting on about how to do an elmsley count. I don't have a problem with people asking how to do stuff but the problem is that nowadays there is so much resource material available, people to look they don't know where to begin. Because of this people then think there must be good video/DVD which will allow them to shortcut the long hours of practise. I have made the mistake (like we all have) of getting a new effect reading the instructions running through it a couple of times thinking it will be ok. The first performance is rubbish you stumble through the routine trying to cover mistakes. Which is why so many of the topics posted (its seems) are not about the hours of practice and still not getting it perfect. they are more along the lines of I have been booked for a show at the weekend can anyone suggest a couple of good tricks that I can put into the routine. You are talking two days practise and then adding it to your repetoire for PAYING CLIENTS!!. It takes time for a trick to become a routine for you to become comfortable with it. How many time do you see the tag line on ad for a trick "Its so amazing and so easy you will be performing in your show tonight" Yeah you will, but unless you are a seasoned pro and already have the patter sorted, it will look like the coin goes in the box and then falls out of the bottom BRILLIANT! How entertaining is that? ......... Where was I?

Oh yeah. So it doesn't matter how many descriptions or videos there of an E.C. they are all as good as each other read the instructions and practise. It is the same for something like a second deal everyone knows what it is there hundreds of descriptions and they all say the same thing "don't deal the top only pretend to actually deal out the second card." It is a case of sitting down for hours and hours finding out how the cards sit in your hands where you need to put your thumb etc...

What I am trying to say is that with magic being so accessible with Forums (like this one) and so many websites displaying their is a good thing but at the same time it is bad thing. You end buying some much stuff that you never actually progress in terms of ability..... I've lost what I was going to say next. I will come back later.

Hear hear.

It really gets to me that here I am, 10 years on from my first 'real' magic outings, and I still don't consider I'm as good as I'd like...

But in that time, I have had more joy from practising and creating magic than I have from performing it.

I can't agree more with you about people who buy a book and a trick or two and suddenly call themselves a 'magician'. Part of the skill is learning and evolving the magic and making it your own.

It takes ages before you should feel happy with a trick, enough to perform it live!

I would recommend that newcomers buy an ID and wear it out with practice before they show anyone, but NO - you get the trick, you read the book, you do it once and PRESTO - you're a magician.

Even self-working magic takes practice to make it convincing.

This is indeed a valuable lesson to us all.

And here's some questions which I bet are repeated in forums all over...

Q1: I can't do the EC, are my hands too small, or is it because my cards are too new?
NO, YOU CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT PRACTISING ENOUGH

Q2: I have a TT and I think it's too dark, it looks nothing like a real one. My friends laugh when I show them a trick because they see it... can I get ones which look more real?
NO, YOU CAN'T. THEY CAN SEE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT PRACTISING ENOUGH!

Q3: I can't palm a coin. I have tried and tried and tried. My mate can do it, I cannot. Is it because my hands are the wrong shape?
NO! NO! NO! IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT PRACTISING AND YOU ARE GIVING UP BEFORE YOU'VE TAKEN THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE CAN DO STRAIGHT AWAY BECAUSE IF THEY COULD THEN WE'D ALL BE EARNING £'S LIKE COPPERFIELD!!!!

And the list would go on, and on, and on.

Just to depress people, here are some 'rough' estimates at how long things take to perfect (or, be good enough to look 'correct'

E.Count
Probably around the region of two months practising on and off, and then, all of a sudden, it will fall into place. Then, you'll spend the rest of your life making it perfect.

Faro Shuffle (perfect)
About a year, I would estimate, before you can confidently cut 26/26 and do a perfect interleave. Then, the rest of your life making it look good and getting it right every time.

A simple coin roll...
A month, if you're lucky, of sitting with a coin on the back of your knuckles and dropping it every four or five seconds.

A simple coin roll, but in both hands simultaneously...!
Nearly there - looks a bit slow, but it's taken me the best part of 3 years I reckon.

....!

So, maybe I'm a slow learner? Maybe I'm a perfectionist?

Or perhaps I'm just patient, and want to do things to a level which I am satisfied with?

OK, that's my little rant over.

You can do a perfect Faro? Both in and out? Brilliant.

Like yourself been doing it for a while a still don't consider my worthy of a paid gig. So it does grate on me a little when you are out at a function and there is a magician out of the box stuff (bit like good ol' D.B.). More importantly you know that he is being paid a small fortune.

But then part of me thinks I like doing this as a hobby and if it was my job what would I do as a hobby?

Back to my rant in a minute.

Midas Kid wrote:You can do a perfect Faro? Both in and out? Brilliant.

Ahhh... but I didn't say I could do it right every time

That would take much longer!

I use it as a flourish, rather than a control, really, although I have studied Lennart Green and the works of Zarrow, and find that false faro's are much easier than a cyclic stack resolve!!!

Just to depress people, here are some 'rough' estimates at how long things take to perfect

Actually - I find that really encouraging. The only reason I kept on practicing the muscle pass, for instance, is that i was told it could take about 6 mnths to get right. Otherwise I would've given up after a week, and a blister on my palm...
Thanks for the thread, Midas Kid and Seige. You've hit the nail on the head

Fantasic stuff guys. I whole heartedly agree with it all, and as taneous states it's actually very reassuring to know that these things simply take time to learn.

It's not just us, it's the same for everyone. We can't expect to simply pick up a dvd and to be able to do everything on it. Even if its the simplest self working tick in the world, it still takes time to learn the performance.

This is actually one of my reasons for my preference for learning from books rather than DVD's, although please please let's not turn this into another "what's best, DVD or book" thread.

Having said all this - the fact that I have small thumbs is obviously still a disadvantage....

Ok I'm back.

Seige your right it does take time and people do need to understand this. I have said this before but it took me a year to become comfortable with a TT. I think people forget when watching these DVDs that the guys peforming having been doing it for 25 years or more. It is not neccesarily that they are more skilled it is just that they have been doing far longer than the rest of us. Perhaps that is why so many have moved to the new fad of mentalism because the tricks are easier (that will be addressed in another argument coming soon, unless someone else wants to start it off?)

I know that we fall into the trap of having to learn new stuff (as Bananafish pointed only last night) because, as amateurs, we are only showing to a limited number of people. So to impress them we have to learn another new trick. Which, as I was saying before, means that you really never progress. Sure you know loads of stuff you can see the mechanics of how a trick works when you watch it on the TV. Can you make it look believable?

A few years back Dan Harlan came to the UK for a series of lectures. I was lucky enough to meet and talk to him about his inspiration for developing new ideas, common mistakes that novice performers make etc… A good solid conversation (and not once was I tempted to quiz him on how to hold cards for an E.C. or how to hold the pen knives for the paddle move blah blah….) The thing that came out of that evenings lecture was about giving your act a reason, flowing from one effect to the next and building the act around 10 of your best / favourite tricks. Rehearse them again and again. Of course over a period of time the list will change and vary but you will always have a good set of core miracles that you will be able to do at anytime. Again this argument stems from seeing those “not so good” magi that are employed for these functions that empty their pockets of packet tricks with no rhyme or reason do the thing and go. As Doc Eason said sure you baffle and bewilder them but he wants his audience going away saying “I don’t know, he did all kinds of stuff we had a great time”….. back later


By the way I have seen Bananafish in the flesh and he does indeed have extraordinarily small thumbs. I do believe that this is the only visible problem that he has so please don't be put off

At the moment it seems as if I'm walking on a treadmill in that I'm practicing and practicing, and yet it seems like I have nothing to show for it. When I started I could do a whole ton of stuff (so it seemed). Now it seems like the more i practice the less I can do - well, the less I'm willing to perform just yet. So the temptation is to scan the catalogs and websites for that instant miracle - but I've done that enough to know it's not the answer.
In light of what has been written in this post - it would seem that when one starts to get serious about practising and performing, the longer the wait is from initial learning to the reward of performance. Is it a common thing to feel a bit like it's going nowhere in the interim?
I guess i know the answer to that - I've been a musician for 20 years and it's the same with that..

Taneous...

Don't be disheartened.

It takes a while, but once you become fluent, the joy of being able to perform is unbeatable - even at amateur/friends/pub level.

And it brings with it new things... for instance, now I can 'do the under-bonnet' stuff, I find myself writing and creating magic, because I have an arsenal of sleights, moves and disciplines which all seem like second nature.

It becomes less of a chore, and more of a passion.

This is one of my pet hates, 'instant magician, just add money' We get so many of them in the shop it makes my skin crawl just to think about them. I have stated my opinions on this a few times so I'm not going to do it again!

As far as practice goes and time it takes to learn stuff it can vary from person to person, but when you are just starting out you are best to practice until you have got it perfect, then practice for the same amount of time again before you show anyone. The chances are that you will still muck it up and have to practice more. Only when you get very proficient will you start to know when you are ready to perform a sleight in the real world.

For a few more rough estimates:
one handed dovetail shuffle, about 2 hours solid to work out how and to be able to do it with the deck of cards I had at the time, another two years or so to be able to do it with pretty much any deck that is not topo soft or too hard.

DL: forever, there are so many variations, and though most are fairly easy to learn you will always be looking for another one for another situation, I use at least four different versions in different effects.

Classic palm, about ten minutes to be able to hold a card there, e very long time to be able to do it subtly and to gain the confidence to get it there from the top of the deck one handed whilst being watched in the middle of a trick.

So what am I saying? Actually being able to do the mechanics of a sleight isn't anywhere near being able to use it, you need a lot more practice than that. I think that more or less ties in with what has already been said!

nickj wrote:This is one of my pet hates, 'instant magician, just add money'

That basically describes what I was about 8months ago. One of the Local Magic stores cater soley to thos sorta ppl; but lucky they have a very small range & I was forced to go further afield & I then descoverd "real" magic

Well done, there is some hope then!

one handed dovetail shuffle

You are one slick machine!! I am unable to do this because, like Bananafish I have a small thumb problem

'instant magician, just add money'

Funny, I can see that add working in the Yellow Pages. I Don't have a problem with the instant magician. That is where we all start and it is the big thing thats gets you kickstarted. But I think what Taneous said it very very true. You pick up your Brainwave deck and your dynamic coins and your off. Miracles galore! Then you move onto the next stage and suddenly you are thinking I don't really have any new effects to show anyone.

This is what will separate us from the rest of the population. The masses will be happy with the idea of "oh he didn't really put it in his hand he just palmed it." (Actually the reason for the public knowing these things is probably down to seeing a magician not performing the effect correctlybecuase of not enough practice.) Which then does make it difficult for the next magi who peforms the same effect in front of that spectator. Even if it was performed flawlessly, for that spectator the puzzle has been solved and all they are likely to say to you is "you are good 'cause I didn't see you palm the coins. I saw this other guy...." . Which why in a way these hopfully these forums and discussion will make people think about there performance before going out into the real world. If we persevere and go beyond the mechanics of how it works hopefully the audience will be given some great entertinment

Which does lead me on to the subject of mentalism. Is this better for the general public to watch? Does the puzzle get removed for them?

As there is no tangible way (or Derren's words "the invisible compromise")the effect can work can they can sit back and enjoy and not worry on the how?. Or do are they just satified with the "Oh that person must be in on it!" Problem solved. And are more magicians taking this path because it does mean you don't have to spend months/years working on one tiny little sleight?

Answers on a postcard.

Sorry I told you this was going to be a stream of consciousness.

I don't have a problem with beginners just buying tricks, it's the way that many get started, it's those people who consider themselves professional magicians but don't really have a clue about magic and just buy a box that does the trick for them. I have mentioned before a guy who came into studio 9, he said he had a job as a magician in Spain and needed some new effects. It became clear after a very short time that he had never performed any magic at all in his life, and despite somehow managing to get a job as a magician he didn't want to spend lot's on decent props, he wanted the cheapest stuff he could get and he wanted it to be the best magic ever without him having to work on it.

After about 6 visits we had managed to take only about £50 off him, and considering he wanted stage effects that is a tiny sum. He seems to have stoppd visiting now, which is good because I was getting seriously p***** off with him asking how an effect worked and the moment I mentioned a simple sleight, or in some cases just remembering with way round to hold something he gave a disgusted snort and asked how something else worked. I f he ever does come in again he is seeing only effects and not getting any explanation of how they work.

Off thread a bit...
Hey, Nick... any progress on the double one-handed dovetail???
Since you mentioned it last time, I've been gruelling with it... and it's possible (about one out of every five times) but my left hand is SOOOOOO much slower than my right.

This was my initial problem with the two-handed coin roll, but that came up to speed. Hope this does too.

And back to topic: I fear we have many in our midst who are 'add money, instant performer' pupils.

As said, it's a great way to get into magic, but it narks me when these guys call themselves magicians. Sure, they're performers of magic... but magician? Nah...

I think I touched on this subject before, with my metaphor of someone buying a paint-by-numbers set becoming an instant oilpaining artist, or someone using Microsoft Frontpage WebWizard thingies becoming an instant web designer (sorry (these are things close to my heart!)

It is just a personal niggle, I guess, as there are people, surely, who are making a living out of a Marvin's Magic set???