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*claps*

I think Reverend Browning is entitled to his point of view. I used to be out and out dubious about alternative medicine but my scepticism is somewhat blunted now. Because of my work as a psychic reverend I come into contact with a lot of holistic healers and people of such ilk. In fact I work out of an alternative health centre when I do readings. I do believe that some of the time some of these people help their patients.

Now I am no doctor and know nothing of these treatments. They may work because of the placebo effect of the mind having a powerful effect on the body or they may work because of something else. I have no idea. However if they work they work and that is all that matters. And I think they do work to some degree.

After all if it is good enough for the Royal Family it should be good enough for the rest of us. The Queen Mother was a homeopathic medicine follower and she lived to be over 100 years old. Of course that may be the gin she partook of on a regular basis. And of course the Queen looks as if she is going to be around for a long time. And she is no spring chicken.

Craig isn't the only one who believes in alternative medicine even though he may be the only one on this forum. I am on the fence about it myself. It is a valid point of view and he is entitled to it.

mark lewis wrote:It is a valid point of view and he is entitled to it.

The problem with that is that point of view is irrelevant when it comes to scientifically testing whether or not something works.

Oh, I wouldn't take any notice of the scientists. They are just as daft as doctors. I remember the time they thought Uri Geller was real.

nickj wrote:

mark lewis wrote:It is a valid point of view and he is entitled to it.

The problem with that is that point of view is irrelevant when it comes to scientifically testing whether or not something works.

The bigger problem however, is even with all the scientific data there are people that have positive results by way of alternative treatment... there are thousands that die because of traditional medical treatment...

When I broke my back the traditional docs wanted to cut and cut and cut... six projected operations and no real guarantee that I'd be able to walk right, dance... work. Yet, two years with treatments via Asian medicine, diet, physical therapy and I was essentially back to normal and functioning. The closest thing to invasive treatment were the needles used in the acupuncture portion of things. This is just one of the more personal reasons why I'm such a strong supporter of this sort of health support. BUT, as I've stated at least twice in this thread, it must be coupled with traditional Western Medicine for best results. Not because it is what brings about the actual healing but because the two compliment one another.

Regardless, we are at the classic impasse in which those that don't want to believe won't and those that leave the door open to the possibilities, will.

Craig Browning wrote:Regardless, we are at the classic impasse in which those that don't want to believe won't and those that leave the door open to the possibilities, will.

Or the classic impasse where those with an emotional need to believe that something is true despite all evidence to the contrary resort to calling anyone else with a different opinion close minded and cynical rather than open their own minds to the possibility that for once, just once, they might not know exactly what their talking about and they might be wrong.

Surely, Mr Browning, what you have just said in your last anecdote is the exact same as the good old fashioned "It worked for me so bu**er all other evidence. I know it exists because i believe in my heart it does"

Ever heard of coincidink?

And I apologise that my comment was edited. I think it had a very valid point that I wouldn't normally post when sober. But meh.

I understand that certain alternative medicine works very well for alcoholics. I most heartedly recommend that Blapsing Beard look into it. If he doesn't then eventually his liver will be gone and then he will have to visit conventional doctors who will kill him off altogether.

Besides a young man of his age shouldn't be indulging in the Devil's Buttermilk and showing up drunk on magic forums.

mark lewis wrote:Besides a young man of his age shouldn't be indulging in the Devil's Buttermilk and showing up drunk on magic forums.

Haha - too true! I should have been showing up at the other half's door!

"Alternative" medicine is such a wide term isn't it. For my part, I would go and seek additional advice from a herbalist for example, if the "mainstream" method didn't work.

As far as I know, herbalism is the root of pharmacology, so it's not quack science. I read a nice anecdote in a book: the doctor (Phd, not MD I should add), joking about people's disbelief on the subject, advised them to go drink a litter of prune juice, and come and discuss it again afterwards

Of course, crystal therapy, reflexology, accupuncture etc... may be a different thing altogether. My ex saw an accupuncturist who treated her for stress. It did work, but there is such a large part of the treatment that is dedicated to talking to the patient, that it's hard to tell if stress relief came from the needles or the "associated counselling". In any case, if it works...

Nothing against mainstream medicine, as I said it will always be my first port of call, but the system is a taylorised machine, especially when you have to go to hospital. Of course, I understand it needs to be organised and productive to deal with the number of patients but I find it a little (a lot?) dehumanising.

I had dealings with specialists who took care of my mother, and although they were excellent, the whole thing was, well, clinical. Hard job they have the doctors, and all my respect to them, don't get me wrong. Medicine is such a specialist subject though, it's hard / impossible to be part of the solution, and clearly a MD on 20 patients a day doesn't have time to provide each one with an hour summary of 8 years of training. Hard not to feel like a social security number though.

Overall, the two reasons I think "alternative" therapies enjoy such success, is that 1) the therapists have a lot more time to dedicate to their patient, and since everything is done on a smaller scale, "volumes" aren't such an issue, and it makes you feel you're getting attention and 2) because they provide an easier explanation. Plants have healing properties, needles adjust the flows of energy, crystals do whatever crystals do... Don't need a Phd to get that.

All in all, if I get my leg cut off, I'll hop to ER and will feel reassured by the organisation of it all. Minor ailments, I would consider both. Still, as they say " 2 glasses of bordeaux a day, keeps the doctor away"

A J Irving wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:Regardless, we are at the classic impasse in which those that don't want to believe won't and those that leave the door open to the possibilities, will.

Or the classic impasse where those with an emotional need to believe that something is true despite all evidence to the contrary resort to calling anyone else with a different opinion close minded and cynical rather than open their own minds to the possibility that for once, just once, they might not know exactly what their talking about and they might be wrong.

Or the classic impasse where someone with an belief in something ridiculous makes outrageous claims and when asked for proof pretends not to read those messages asking for proof and prefers to make their decisions based on faith rather than evidence.

Kinda like believing in God, or other fairy stories.

Craig Browning wrote:The bigger problem however, is even with all the scientific data there are people that have positive results by way of alternative treatment... there are thousands that die because of traditional medical treatment...

When I broke my back the traditional docs wanted to cut and cut and cut... six projected operations and no real guarantee that I'd be able to walk right, dance... work. Yet, two years with treatments via Asian medicine, diet, physical therapy and I was essentially back to normal and functioning. The closest thing to invasive treatment were the needles used in the acupuncture portion of things. This is just one of the more personal reasons why I'm such a strong supporter of this sort of health support. BUT, as I've stated at least twice in this thread, it must be coupled with traditional Western Medicine for best results. Not because it is what brings about the actual healing but because the two compliment one another.

Regardless, we are at the classic impasse in which those that don't want to believe won't and those that leave the door open to the possibilities, will.

It is odd however, that when tests are conducted in controlled environments many of these treatments do not work. In science we use a the term validity when talking about experiments; an experiment is only valid if the results are dependent on just the variable you change, in the real world there are many other variables that cannot be controlled which could be responsible.

For my part, I don't rule out the possibility that some "alternative" medicines could be effective. For example, the possibility that acupuncture could be effective for pain relief and various other afflictions since it supposedly stimulates certain nerves which could, when combined, have an effect on the brain; at least there is a possible mechanism. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is a load of rubbish; it cannot possibly work and anyone with an understanding of highschool chemistry could tell you why.

Dunno. I have a friend who is a marine biologist whatever the hell that is. I think he kills fish or something. Anyway he is of a very scientific mind and training. However his father is a homeopathic doctor. He reluctantly admits that he has seen countless cures produced by his father. He admits there doesn't seem to be a scientific basis that he can figure out but it DOES work. After all how would his father stay in practice for years on end if he didn't cure a single person?

He gets on his high horse when I mention "side effects" from drugs. He says there are no such things as "side effects". There are only "effects". I suppose he got this line of patter from his dad. In other words the doctors bloody kill you as I have said all along. Homeopaths don't actually do you any harm and for all I know actually do you some good. More than the bloody doctors can claim.

Regression to the mean, and "the pills I'm on are doing nothing, but this magic water has started to kick in".

That psychic surgeon documentary was quite a good demonstration of this. What is more, the people who believe that the homeopathy has helped will come back, even when subsequent treatments fail to help. The people for whom the homeopathy clearly fails do not come back - all the practitioner sees is the apparrently successful clients.

There's a debate that's raging at the moment about whether or not the low force head twist favoured by chiropractors cause strokes. There's a genuine physiological reason to suspect this may be the case, but it came to light primarily because stroke doctors noticed the large number of people passing through their doors who have had this particular chiropractic treatment. Chiropractors claim that the risk is low and say that they rarely learn of any of their patients suffering from strokes. I suspect that the move is more dangerous than the chiroes realise, but not as risky as the stroke doctors believe, it's just that both parties have a different "sample" to work with, and have drawn different conclusions accordingly.

mark lewis wrote:I think Reverend Browning is entitled to his point of view. I used to be out and out dubious about alternative medicine but my scepticism is somewhat blunted now. Because of my work as a psychic reverend I come into contact with a lot of holistic healers and people of such ilk. In fact I work out of an alternative health centre when I do readings. I do believe that some of the time some of these people help their patients.

Now I am no doctor and know nothing of these treatments. They may work because of the placebo effect of the mind having a powerful effect on the body or they may work because of something else. I have no idea. However if they work they work and that is all that matters. And I think they do work to some degree.

After all if it is good enough for the Royal Family it should be good enough for the rest of us. The Queen Mother was a homeopathic medicine follower and she lived to be over 100 years old. Of course that may be the gin she partook of on a regular basis. And of course the Queen looks as if she is going to be around for a long time. And she is no spring chicken.

Craig isn't the only one who believes in alternative medicine even though he may be the only one on this forum. I am on the fence about it myself. It is a valid point of view and he is entitled to it.

To your first bit I heard a snipper the other day these alternsative medicine guys and gals are good at making you feel better and helping you to phsycologicaly block something but its the doctors and surgeons that make say teh cancer go.