talkmagic.co.uk

Just read this whole thread.
Eshly, I am worried about your views on predictions.
There are two ways you can go with this- you can switch the prediction, force the prediction or genuinley predict something. It all depends on what type of prediction you're doing. If you want someone to think of a word and you have predicted (If I'm honest that is quite a dull theme) then I would recomend that you switch the prediction. Perhaps backstage you could have someone writing it out nice and big ready to get it on stgae with you surreptitiously. Perhaps you could just use a swami. You could also instant stooge them. I am not here to give you a list of methods.
One thing that really confused me is why you seem to think that forcing doesn't look fair. That is the idea- they are supposed to look fair- if they don't then that jeapordises the entire effect. I'll tell you what, get a little book about 'methods of forcing' by a certain well known mentalist.
The thing is, is I could easily do an effect where no prediction would be switched (it could even be an open prediction) and there is no instant stooging or preshow work where a word is named and I have predicted it. I am not gloating or showing off, but all I am saying is that you need to stop worrying about methods. Learn to use the less 'clean' methods. Methods are not important because for the above effect I might as well switch it as far as the audience cares, I might as well instant stooge them or use preshow work. The effect is the same one. Go out and perform and then go onto the more advanced methods. Don't shoot down the 'less clean' methods, because you have to remember we are bloody cheaters! Some methods will be cleaner than others but it all comes down to performance. Marc Salem rareley uses so called 'advanced' mentalism because he is a great performer... well, a great entertainer. He doesn't give a damn about cleaness of effects because he performs what is baffling to a lay audience, what is entertaining- not what is 'advanced' and 'clean'. He caught me off guard with a blatant peek because he payed attention to detail and planned out every second of his show. Marc Salem is by no means a favourite mentalist of mine, but he is a perfect role model for aspiring mentalists who snort at the 13 steps and anneman because they're not clean enough. Fair enough, There is a fair amount of Corinda's book which isn't suited to what I like to do, but I don't shun it I have other knowledge in which to fill that casm, but when I don't I have to humble myself and use it. I don't like book tests personally and I never have liked that aesthetic or concept. But when I first started I didn't know enough about mentalism to perform the magic that I had in mind, and so I had to perform what I knew, what would gain me experience and presentational skill. No method is beneath you and it is only when you go out and perform things that you realise, 80% of the time, what you expect to work in a performance setting is impracticle and what you think will NEVER work does. As a slight the top change not incredibly elegant and if it wasn't as acclaimed as it is amongst magicians I probably wouldn't have realised it's potential potency- but it is practical- there are tons of elegant and fancy one's which aren't.
I am not having a go at you Eshly- but educate yourself a little more about forcing and don't be afraid to perform right out of the 13 steps as you develop experience. It is practical, entertaining, baffling material and will get you far as a performer. Then start to worry about cleaning up the method and 'upgrading' to cleaner methods. I know you hear it all the time, but your presentation- your scripting goes a MILLION miles further than ANY method.

themagicwand wrote:

Eshly wrote:
(yes, I'm a newbie, please don't hate me )

Now I'm confused. If you're a newbie, why are you planning a stage show? Why not start with a little close-up with friends and family? Build up your experience, confidence & knowledge? Otherwise I fear for your show Eshly, I really do.

And, if you were to spend as much time reading books and/or watching DVD's as you do posting on TalkMagic, you wouldn't have to keep posting on TalkMagic. If that makes sense...

Its a very longterm plan.

I think we best not talk about it, or me and Iain will be off again with handbags flying.


@Sam

I am not saying forces look unfair, I'm just saying they look slightly less fair; they are still perfectly viable, if not better than switching. For example I am considering using a force bag to force the selection of the newspaper, but I do worry that it won't go along with my "I'm influencing your choices" scripting, because a force bag is a random selection from a spectators point of view.

Speaking generally forces are more impressive than switches, unless you have a lot of money to spend - which is why I think I prefer them, but they will always have their disadvantages.


This thread was designed to be about switching VS forcing, and which was better for such a closer. But Robbie made the good point that my whole concept of a closer may be flawwed.



Tom
xx

But that is exactley the point- no methods are 'better' or worse than any others. It is dependent upon the appropriateness given the effect, enviroment, performer, performance.
I could say that Lateral palm is better than classic palm- but that would not be accurate. It depends on angling, how you as a performer feel more comfortable, the effect and again, your misdirection and presentation. Sometimes using a classic palm will be a little suspicious and a Lateral palm would be more appropriate, other times a Lateral palm would be arkward with the enviroment and what the hands need to be doing or even as Dale said (in my metaphor) sometimes a combination would be appropriate to cover the weaknesses and strengths of the other.
Don't fall into the trap of deluded 'preferences'- it is all dependent on many variables.

If it's a long term plan then why bother about it at all at the moment. People who know what they are talking about have given you some very good tips. If I were you, I'd read study and build up to these things when you're ready to. Which at the moment, you really aren't.

The best forces are those that make it appear as though you're making it more difficult for you, the magician. The movement behind the force needs to have a reason behind it, and it has to be one that the participant is only too willing to accept for that reason.

To come up with a completely fake method where lets say if you riffle shuffle a deck of cards three times your force card would come to the top, you'd say "Do us a favour and give the deck a good shuffle would you? Make sure it's a good one, like this *demonstrates*. Great. In fact, do it again, to be sure they're random"

I hope Tomo doesn't mind me sharing this, but the naked book test has the most beautiful force I've seen in writing. There's rock solid reasoning behind it, reasoning that is actually based on scientific fact. Or at least, it's science that sounds so believable that even I believe it

I wouldn't recommend that book test for you though, nothing personal to you, I just don't think it would satisfy your needs. If you want to see a beautifully scripted force though (among other mentalism concepts I shouldn't divulge, but what Tomo has evidently put a lot of thought into) it's well worth getting a copy

I am considering getting Naked Mentalism 1 and 2, as they seem to come very highly reccomended; and its always nice to be able to do stuff on the fly.


Tom
xx

Eshly wrote:I am considering getting Naked Mentalism 1 and 2, as they seem to come very highly reccomended; and its always nice to be able to do stuff on the fly.


Tom
xx

Get it. But don't expect it to work every time, although this, in my opinion, heightens the effect.

I thought you said you had a master prediction chest?

How much of the stuff in the ebooks is foolproof, and how much can fail?

Lenoir wrote:I thought you said you had a master prediction chest?

Yeh... I don't know why I say these things either. o.O

Eshly wrote:

Lenoir wrote:I thought you said you had a master prediction chest?

Yeh... I don't know why I say these things either. o.O

so really, we can't trust a thing you say

Once again, we're all done here.....