no honour amoung thieves

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No Honour Amongst Thieves

Postby Allen Tipton » Apr 3rd, '10, 17:59



SamGurney wrote:. It would be nice to think I'm entering a community where I can discuss magic ideas and trust people


Ah Sam, IF you had been around in the late 40's & the 50's you would have found such a Community in the BMS in Birmingham, The Staffs Magic Society in Smethwick and elsewhere.
And the Friendship, the Brotherhood & Passing On of Magic was there--for all ages.
This time I can truthfully say-'Those were the Days'.

Allen Tipton

Began magic at 9 in 1942. Joined Staffs M.S at 13. Nottm.Guild of M. (8 times President. Prog Director 20years)IBM. Awarded Magician of Month 1980 By Intern. Pres. IBM for reproducing Dante's Sim Sala Bim. Writes Dear Magician column for Abra. Mag.
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Postby Craig Browning » Apr 3rd, '10, 18:14

Back in the 80s a guy name Hal Marquat (sp) made a deal with FOX Television to create a video in which he wore a mask and exposed how several grand illusions were done (yes, Hal was the ORIGINAL Masked Mage). His actions got the Castle membership's panties in bunch, he was disowned and drummed out of magic "Officially"... he was "Named & Shamed"

Same (similar) happened to Jim Sommers, James Biss, and several individuals involved with magic building and effect development and yet, in every single case these people managed to not just continue with their careers, they've come through the thick of it in a way that allowed them to still shine even without any kind of apology or recognition of wrong doing. Last I heard Hal has been doing quite well everywhere but the U.S. and Europe as is Val Valentino who is generating more money now days as the Masked Marvel than he ever made working shows in Vegas & Laughlin 7 days a week and playing nice with the political string pullers.

But there is one other face to this point... The Magic Castle Library had a section in which several valuable books were locked-up in a glass viewing cabinet and only accessible to a very limited number of members that had positive standing, etc. Yet, the lock was frequently picked, the doors left wide opened... the small photocopier in the room being ran empty time and again as sections of most every book in that room were being photocopied... even the anti-theft tags set into the books (think shop lifting prevention here) would get removed... and that's all prior to the graffiti found in books placed there by this and that member (a job I personally had the task of cleaning up at one point, it got so bad).

The Point Is the whole idea of Name & Shame might make those that feel that they got ripped off feel better... it might create a quasi-boycott to some degree, but it rarely costs the "assumed" culprit a thing.

I've been "Named & Shamed" by a handful of individuals that have an axe to grind. One of them has gone so far as to feature a nice big note on his publishing web page warning people about me and offering them a "reward" should they hear of my asking about his material... I've even been told by these same people that I"m being bad-mouthed and viewed as "Untrustworthy" by several "Noted" individuals that I've done business with or had some kind of interactions with and yet, I've not found one single bit of proof to their claims nor have the various folks they insinuate heard of such ramblings, most of whom have informed me that they will point me in the right direction if and when they do... thus far there have only been the same three or so names cropping up... a close nit rumor mill it seems. [He'd be surprised as to how many and who has offered me copies of his material and what they had to say about it... and for the record, I turned them all down and dare anyone to find a copy of his stuff anywhere in my home]

I do not point this out as a catalyst for starting another drama play between myself and my "accusers" only to point out that the Name & Shame game can go very wrong, especially when all the "i's" aren't dotted and the "t's" properly crossed.

On one front I owe my personal accusers a big thanks in that their assholiness helped me come to a dreaded conclusion... a decision that I've been wanting to not have to make; throwing in the towel so to speak. Not because of anything they've said holds validity or even as my admission of guilt (my only guilt being to try to do something nice that got blown up in my own face). It's just facing up to the facts that I can no longer deal with it all mentally or physically and by "it all" I mean trying to work just as much as juggling all the balls that get tossed into the air by this and that ladder climber seeking to use you as a wrung.... or, in my case, a broken-down old crate upon which to stand.



:oops: Ok... I've been a bit emotional on this post, not to plead my own case but to point out the very real facts that a.) Most Magicians as Jerks and Would Still from Their Own Mothers if She Had a Method they Liked; b.) No Matter How Much You Rant & Rave or How Loud Your "Name & Shame" Campaign is, It Will Not Change One Bloody Thing! The Magic World Will Still Be Filled With Thieves and Rapscallions.

Go look at your own acts and get gut wrenching honest about what you find and just how much you haven't "borrowed" from others? Hell, most of us parrot what we've seen on a video word for word no matter who's on the footage... we tell ourselves otherwise, but the majority of us are mimics, not the creative geniuses we embrace via the internet realms and in dreamland.

Less than two weeks after a dear friend of mine saw me do a particular Progressive Anagram routine in my show he and two of his magic chums had downloaded it from Underground Collective and were putting it into their acts... one of whom had the audacity to ask me to help him round out his presentation of it.

Tell me I wasn't pi**ed... but this is what the magician does and has done forever. Nothing you say or do will ever change it. This is the reality of it all. :wink:

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Postby IAIN » Apr 3rd, '10, 18:24

good to see you havent turned all this around back to you, and your own personal "axe" to grind Craig... :roll: :lol:

back to the original post now...and i still encourage you Harris, to name and shame...

if people unite, stick to their principles, be proven to be trustworthy and help one another out...then thats a good thing...

bullies and people who can't take responsibility for their own actions be damned...

no matter what side of the argument people stand on, if you have proof - post it...simple. Put up or shut up i suppose (said with love)

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Postby SamGurney » Apr 3rd, '10, 18:30

Go look at your own acts and get gut wrenching honest about what you find and just how much you haven't "borrowed" from others? Hell, most of us parrot what we've seen on a video word for word no matter who's on the footage... we tell ourselves otherwise, but the majority of us are mimics, not the creative geniuses we embrace via the internet realms and in dreamland.

I can speak for myself that I'm not a parrot. In terms of material, which I don't think you were talking about, I will give anyone a million quid if they have never performed someone elses material0 but it's unfair to say we're all parrots lurking beneath the veil the internet affords us.
But we are talking about an interesting topic (although, I can see this potentially going.. a little out of hand). I have many influences which come through in my style- but that will happen in whatever feild you are in, because influence is nigh on impossible to avoid. But there is a clear line between influence and outright mimicing. So please, lets not go making sweeping statements.. as for the inevitable debate about to happen, I am keeping well clear.

''To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in another's.'' Dostoevsky's Razumihin.
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Postby IAIN » Apr 3rd, '10, 18:41

massive difference though, between performing something you've learnt via a book or dvd or whatever (and bought, legally) - to using something that was shared/shown privately, without permission...

pleased to say i've never downloaded anything illegally...not even a single music file...

as for the patter...its one of the many joys of mentalism (especially) where you go and write it all yourself...

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Postby SamGurney » Apr 3rd, '10, 18:44

I agree- with mentalism perhaps more than magic- a single word can mean the difference between a great trick and a rubbish one.

''To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in another's.'' Dostoevsky's Razumihin.
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Postby gunnarkr » Apr 3rd, '10, 23:08

I agree to "Name & Shame", not to make that person famous, (which I don't think will be the case here), but to allow working magicians to avoid the b*stard and rather work with honest blokes.

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No Honour Amongst Thieves

Postby Allen Tipton » Apr 4th, '10, 11:40

I have just been watching a video of Cris Angel on the Coin In The Can & a long interview with him.
On thieving he says:
'I have been ripped off many times and it has p****d me off. But i expect to get ripped off. Become a human sponge, absorb ALL the knowledge you can and lift the envelope'
I presume this means learn & grow??

He does say how angry it USED to make him feel.

Allen Tipton
I presume

Began magic at 9 in 1942. Joined Staffs M.S at 13. Nottm.Guild of M. (8 times President. Prog Director 20years)IBM. Awarded Magician of Month 1980 By Intern. Pres. IBM for reproducing Dante's Sim Sala Bim. Writes Dear Magician column for Abra. Mag.
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Postby pcwells » Apr 4th, '10, 11:42

Personally, I see the name and shame process as a public service in these situations.

There are some people I trust enough to freely discuss ideas with. There are obviously others that I don't.

I'd hate to think that this trust is misplaced if someone I know has already been ripped off by one of my 'friends'.

I don't want to be a hermit, so I'd like to know where the bad eggs are. :)

Pete

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Postby Craig Browning » Apr 4th, '10, 13:30

I understand the inclination of believing Name & Shame does some kind of good, the purpose of my previous post however, was to show how it's simply not that effective. The majority of those who are named manage to continue on in life, supported by those that don't buy into the drama and whining.

Most of the pros limit their creative interaction with other magicians because of this. There's currently a big issue being played out in the Mentalism world between two noted performers over this very same kind of issue. Those that have incurred this sort of problem before learn to lay a non-disclosure and secrecy contract on the table first... kind of like getting a pre-nup before the wedding. It gives you a legal leg to stand on and keeps you from looking like another bruised ego screaming in the wilderness.

90% of the Name & Shame game is ego... lashing out in revenge. The balance centers on the classic political game tied to our world (look at the responses in this thread). The thinking being that everyone in Magic (in this case) will boycott and avoid the individual in question. The truth is, they don't.

Builders that make non-legit copies of effects that only one or two sources have the manufacturing rights to, get outed regularly and yet, someone is still supporting them. The Piracy/Torrent site type operations get slapped down and bitched about and yet again, someone is patronizing them or it wouldn't be the issue so many make of it (and I'm not condoning that sort of thing, just pointing out that someone has to be patronizing such elements or they wouldn't exist).

Name & Shame, especially in the forums, is looked upon as immature forum drama by most of the people I have interacted with when it comes to some of the attacks made on me. According to certain legal resources, how the Name & Shame game is played can be viewed as Internet Stalking & Bullying which is becoming a big deal now days, when it comes to various elements in the law enforcement world... primarily due to the number of folks that have literally killed themselves over such harassments.

I've been the only voice in this whole thread to warn against the Name & Shame game playing. Circumstances in my life forcing me to look into such things and understand both, the mentality of those playing the game as well as how such antics are viewed on the broader horizon of it all. My only encouragement being to seriously think things through before the mud slinging begins. :wink:

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Postby Harris » Apr 4th, '10, 13:46

Sorry chaps to start a thread and run, i was away yesterday.

Anyways Yes I totally agree that name and shame IS the way to go, but only after first checking this was their genuine intention.

Im allowing some time to wait for a response and depending on that will depend on how I proceed.

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Postby Tomo » Apr 4th, '10, 14:06

Harris wrote:Sorry chaps to start a thread and run, i was away yesterday.

Anyways Yes I totally agree that name and shame IS the way to go, but only after first checking this was their genuine intention.

Im allowing some time to wait for a response and depending on that will depend on how I proceed.

That's a good idea. Without confirmation it could conceivably be a mistake, but if they've pulled a fast one it has to be done. I saw how much work you'd put in last night and it looks like a wholesale rip off. It'd be wrong to let the culprit get away with it. Every little helps to marginalise and push the scum further out of magic.

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Postby Dirty Davey » Apr 5th, '10, 08:49

People like that are just scum and no other word for it. To take something that someone who trusts you has run by you in confidence and then rip it off without so much as asking permission is totally wrong. That's the reason that I always keep my cards close to my chest and only share my ideas with a couple of close friends who I know I can trust.

Shout their name from the rooftops and let everyone know who they are.

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Postby Craig Browning » Apr 5th, '10, 17:00

Dirty Davey wrote:People like that are just scum and no other word for it. To take something that someone who trusts you has run by you in confidence and then rip it off without so much as asking permission is totally wrong. That's the reason that I always keep my cards close to my chest and only share my ideas with a couple of close friends who I know I can trust.

Shout their name from the rooftops and let everyone know who they are.


Franz Harary and other noted genius designers out there absolutely refuse to talk business or effect concepts with even their closest friends for this very reason... confusion happens!

The Twister Illusion in which a girls torso ends up looking like a wrung out rag... there are no fewer than 6 key players associated with that effect, most of whom actually sat in the same room or in the same coffee clutch doing late not brain storming. Yet, one guy and one guy only has his name stuck to it... mainly due to the political nature of the game. I can list well over a dozen major illusions that I consulted on that came out under one person's name, completely negating the involvement of the five or six others that assisted in working out the bugs, coming up with superior methods, etc. But even if you do keep things tight and legally bound with contracts, etc. YOU WILL BE BETRAYED... maybe not by those on your team but someone along the route will "borrow" from you... one ancient example is the Spectator Sawing...

The Original was co-developed by Percy Abbott and Kirk Kirkham but Abbott made a second set-up with Kirkham's approval, for a British gent by the name of Harbin... who made a few rather simple improvement to the idea and via the politics of magic, got his name tagged to an effect that really isn't his... you must understand, Abbott and Kirkham (though respected for their creativity) were both viewed as "bad boys" by the magic community. But like all of us that have been on stage, Kirkham had several other things "stolen" including the majority of the now "stock" lines used in a Lakes Head Chopper act.

If we Name & Shame everyone that perpetrates this sort of underhandedness, you'll would be quite shocked as to the many names... recognizable names, that would come onto said list. Especially when it comes to who has the right to perform certain effects, an idea started back in the late 60s/early 70s as the result of the famed Sommers & Harbin conflict around the Zig Zag.

By all means, have a very direct chat with the person that's taken advantage of you. But in so doing keep an open mind to things and be willing to LISTEN and weigh their side of things... frequently there's just a misunderstanding, not deliberate back stabbing. If you confront someone with your mind already made up, then no body wins. If you aren't honorable enough to understand that other person's situation/ circumstances and how that might have caused them to do things in a way that seems like betrayal but to them it wasn't... then again, the lack of consideration results in both parties looking like an ass and nobody wins.

Name & Shame is a two-edged blade and only a fool welds it wildly, without first weighing the circumstances surrounding the perceived wrong doing.

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Postby SamGurney » Apr 6th, '10, 00:40

Craig, I understand that you are saying naming and shaming won't change everything and that things can be continued by those individuals relativley easily without hinder. But that is not the point, it is not necesserily to punish them, but to safeguard oneself from that individual. If it damages things for them, then that's useful, but I do hope this is not all generated by vendetes and revenge- although that would be perfectly valid and just to point out, those calling for name and shame have no personal vendetta as the identity is.. well, I guess from the naming and shaming, undisclosed, which suggests my earlier point about safeguarding oneself.
:D

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