talkmagic.co.uk

I understand that you are saying naming and shaming won't change everything

This possibly depends on who it is that is named and shamed.

If it turns out to be someone that we all thought briliant, and above board, ( Me for instance) Its likely to dammage their reputation no end.

It's not me by the way.. I can 100% guarentee that.
I give away far more than i recieve, and have been in the position Evies in many times, watching my ideas being performed without permission or credit.


After the first few times, you kind of get used to it.

That's a horrible thing to do, it doesn't take much to at least ask permission before using something that someone else has been working on.

Let me know if anyone needs a shin kicking

well, I have no experience in this backstabbing that seems to go on other than talking to an amateur and in depth explaining my philosophies on presentation and then giving examples (ahem, example:)
For example I said: you wouldn't say 'You're wearing a black coat, so that means you have a black card (as I heard the said individual say ) because there is no logic- how does the colour of someone's coat bear any relevence to the colour of their card- unless you were to say something like 'Now, I am wearing a black coat which could impress on you to think of a darker colour- which is of course black, and now you're guarding your reaction so that confirms it' which he then repeated verbatm.

daleshrimpton wrote:This possibly depends on who it is that is named and shamed.

Absolutely. It also depends on how the culprit reacts to the situation, too. The mechanism is a well-understood one. It's called the "Streisand Effect". The more the culprit struggles, the more attention is drawn to the information and the worse he looks. That never goes away. There is, however, the problem of newbies not being aware of what's gone on.

However, because the information is out there in public, newbies - who seem to develop astonishing Google powers overnight when the enthusiasm for magic first rises - come across it. Supported by clear, unequivocal evidence in the culprit's own words, any attempt to deny it or poison the well shows immediately that the culprit is a person of questionable character.

It's also a HUGE mistake to think that magic isn't a huge mass of interconnected people who use information like currency, and who spend it freely. The effect on the wrongdoer is automatic and progressive marginalisation as word spreads.

Deliberately drawing attention to having done wrong, literally wearing it like a badge of wounded pride, amplifies the effect further. One has to wonder about the character of someone who deliberately does that. With every protestation, the binds tighten, more people who didn't know become aware, and the damage deepens.

Honesty is always the best policy. Without proof, we are nothing.

Words fail me: see diagram

I so love Tomo's theory... he has several I've found, a few of which are based on some incomplete data. The one he's explaining for example, is an ASSUMPTION in which alternate data is not applied to a given scenario... in his allusion, how an accused individual "tightens" a noose about their neck because of their denial of a claim made by their accuser and the fact that the accuser is putting forth incomplete details for supporting his claims...

We've all seen this game played out, even on the television crime dramas but let's look at the OJ Simpson Trial and how, the suppression of evidence to the contrary, a jury bought into a lie based on what was presented... incomplete data. It happens all the time on many fronts and most all industries. But this is one reason why I've interjected the challenge around the whole Name & Shame game playing and how it can ultimately place a thick layer of mud on the face of the accuser. Even when that accuser has been quietly "bribing" supporters of his target with this or that "gift" in order to schmooze and manipulate... several of my associates and I have had a hardy chuckle around said antics being played by one of my detractors... but that's not where I wish to go with my statements here... it's not about "me" it's about thinking through such actions as well as the legality of creating a "Black Ball" type scenario... which is exactly what's being proposed. I don't know about the UK but I know in the U.S. any such antics that cost a person their livelihood and/or threaten such can result in legal recourse and related compensation. Something that's being attached to certain Bullying laws now being established here in direct address to on-line Name & Shame antics.

Other things to bear in mind when it comes to Naming & Shaming is how the deliberateness of one's actions... the act of "Outing" your target, can be viewed on legal levels (with very genuine medical validation & support) as an attack designed to cause physical and/or emotional damage... for example, expressing such claims during the holiday season which is statistically a dangerous time for persons known to have emotional/psychological instabilities. To exploit such timing is classified as criminal and when death... even suicide result... the culprit can see harsh legal actions take shape in the form of aggravated manslaughter charges or the attempt thereof... not that I would know of anyone that would be so low in their game playing, cruel, inhuman, and petty... especially someone that believes themselves to be above board and the salt of the earth.

But as I said, Jon's theory... theories... tend to lack a great deal of the required data when it comes to understanding the greater truth around a claimed circumstance.

Going back to the original post, all this is still subject to discussion and negotiation. We're awaiting more news so perhaps at this point we take a break to let the dust settle?

Well as a quick update and then Mr mandrake can you please lock again.

Theres some discrepancy regarding the templates that the stuff was already taken from.

They state that it is theirs, although with some additions that are mine.

the item in question is not up for sale and was just being used as an example.

They are going to remove my additions and have the item back as it was.

So sorted.

Jolly good

Good news!