talkmagic.co.uk

Firstly I think that the emphasis in magic has shifted from the days of old lol.
At that time magic was unknown as was a secret even to the audience who had little clue about science etc etc.

These days its all about presentation. Whereas previous the cries of how did he do that, are now replaced by that was fun/entertaining etc.

Of course there is overlap but a general gist of my point.

Now as for effects and selling.

As someone entering the market I'm happy to share my reasons why.

There is no singular reason, but a colliding of the stars of fate lol.

Firstly there is encouragement from those who have seen, used stuff you've come up with and think there's a market for it.

Second, I'm not a performer. I dabble, but nothing I sell has been used by me verbatim. These have been used by others.

Third to protect my ideas I ping them round various people I know and trust as well as having photos floating around.

Peeps see these and ask about the avilability.

Truth is (in my genre) if I don't release it, someone else will once they find out about an idea. Its a rather large worry of mine lol

Fourth, the validation through a sale is a rather nice feeling.

And lastly the money lol. Trust me there's not much to be made in this way, but it does go a little way to funding the next project or testing the next idea.

I think magic still has some secrecy left yet, but magicians are less secretive around each other. Look at the TM community for instance, the knowledge and experience (even without methods) that is freely shared here is invaluable.

But can you imagine 19th century magicians sharing such knowledge with each other?

In the end it comes down to money doesn't it? People can make good money off publishing, whereas holding onto your secrets, even if they are wonderful, doesn't guarentee you fame and fortune. Selling them might, though.

I think a more open magic community is a good thing, to an extent. Its nice to keep one or two things back for yourself though, which I'm sure everyone does. As long as we keep our secrets away from those damn laymen

I'm with the two posters who said magic is about entertainment rather than secrets.

TonyB wrote:I'm with the two posters who said magic is about entertainment rather than secrets.

But isn't that like saying "Theater is about entertainment, not acting"?

The secrecy is a key means to the end of the particular form of entertainment.

You're not talking about me are you Lenny?

For me there are a few different reasons for publishing what I have published and they don't have anything to do with ego and certainly don't have anything to do with money.

I've had things published in Linking Ring, Naked Mentalism and Kenton Knepper's Mindreading Lessons. None of these publications earnt me a penny so it certainly wasn't for the money. In all of those cases, I was asked if I'd mind my thoughts and routines being in the publication because the author liked my work. While having my name in those publications certainly isn't going to do my any harm, ego had nothing to do with it. The effect in the Linking Ring was an idea I'd played with and left behind so if someone else can make use of it then I'm more than happy for that to happen. With Tomo and Kenton, it was the least I could do for them, both have been a great inspiration and help to me, offering me their advice and encouragement free of charge so letting them publish some of my ideas was the least I could do.

As for my two booklets, the first was Murder in Mind. A little routine that I've performed many times and have developed. It's a routine that I really believe in and love and decided that I'd like to share with other people. It's just a way of giving something back to the community. I spent a lot of effort researching the methods and getting people's views on the routine before it was published. I think I was almost a year, researching and checking things before it was finally released.

My new booklet, is a little something I came up with that a few people including a couple of very big names got quite excited about. I was a little nervous about releasing this one as I know some people really wont get it but with the endorsements it's recieved I'm confident that it's worth releasing.

I'm not making much money on either of the books and the money I am making when compared with the time and effort taken to produce the booklets really isn't worth it. It's not about ego or recognition, it's about sharing something that I've written and really do believe in with the rest of the magic community. Why should I keep all my ideas under my hat, if people can make use of them then I'm happy.

For the two booklets I've published there are another 6 sat on my computer that I don't think are good enough. I feel that I've priced things reasonably and am not out to make a quick buck.

I like the idea of Paul Brooks 'Homage to Crowley' the secret effect being held back to those who can work out the code in his books. This seems like a nice idea to reward those dedicated enough to spend time solving it.

Exsqueeze me here...

Let's look at history and just how long commercially available magic books or even magic kits have been available... I can assure you, it's not been very long and up into the WWII years, one would be lucky to find more than two or maybe three books on the subject other than the give-aways you might find at one of the larger shows.

In the post war years we started seeing "manuscripts" most of which were poorly typed and run off on the first "convenient" mode of self-publishing; the, mimeograph machine ("sigh"... I do miss that unique smell ) though major dealers, such as ABBOTTS in the U.S. actually had small batches of said material compiled until actual magic publishing companies started to take root. Even though Robert Nelson was publishing well before this era, it was the post war years that escalated his business along side that of Micky Hades (Hades Publications) and a few others of note. Nonetheless, magic remained somewhat exclusive, unless you had access to a magic shop chances were slim at best, that you could get your hands on actual books that taught magic... with a few important exceptions... bread-crumbs, you might say...

* Advertising in Comic Books
* Advertising in Youth Publications such as those distributed in the Scouting programs
* Scouting Manuals/Merit Badge programs
* Premiums Sold or Given Away at Magic Shows (especially School shows)
* Magician Themed Comics such as the old Blackstone & Mandrake series.

It was through these resources that kids would gain contact information to key magic shops who did mail order... and trust me, those of you that loathe waiting a few days for your order now days wouldn't have survived the wait periods back then -- 4-6 weeks being the norm.

Outside the possible discovery of books donated to the local Libraries, this was more or less the only way one had access to magic secrets without actually working for a magician or possibly a side show scenario.

Needless to say, as printing became less expensive and Television gave magic a unique infusion of popularity a demand for greater access came about. I'm not positive but I believe it was in the early days of Tv that things really started getting "commercial" but then by the mid and late 60's we had Svenagali pitches in the form of a 60-second commercial (TV Magic Cards & Kits). This was probably one of the biggest steps when it comes to magic secret access by the non-magician community.

The 1970s and early 80s gave the magic secret & publishing element some new and much needed "qualities" -- Legitimate Publishing Company support, which resulted in superior quality book lay-outs, editing, art work, etc. The methods had become less expensive and the demands of the market, far greater. BUT, these advancements in publishing resulted in our books becoming more "legit" in the eyes of major book retailers and thus, some well established "bibles" of the day stared seeing distribution to one and all; the general public had casual access to everything from the Stein & Dey Handbook of Magic to Tarbell. But here's the important footnote: Only the people that were interested in magic would look for said material even though it was sitting there for all to see, touch and read if they wanted.

But then we come to the 1990s and the world of Self-Publishing... granted, it had been around a few years when it comes to the PC advantage but now we had a thing known as The World Wide Web and Portable Document Files... anyone with a hint of savvy and a phone line, could peddle their wares. In very short time eCommerce was a way of life and affecting (or is that "infecting"?) ALL industries. It was likewise the avenue via which tons of misinformation was being spread, including Magic Exposure.

When it comes to our industry and the plethora of questionable material that keeps bogging down bandwidth, we can only blame ego along side greed (or at least the fantasy that one can make lots of money selling such stuff).

I happen to enjoy the ease of self-publishing but then I've had published material in circulation since the mid and late 1980s... an even on the topics of mentalism and seance work. But even I have discovered the pit-falls when it comes to this ease of publishing without the checks & balances one really should have in place. Granted, my "embarrassment" is one most writers endure; always going back and saying to yourself, "Maybe I should have done it this way..."

Anywho... the mass "exposure" if you would (and I'm not talking about the ugly sort of exposure) and availability of "Tricks" (not to be confused with "secrets') stems from precisely what I and others have said here; the delusion that publishing delivers name recognition and "significant" income. Many of the more enterprising writers using their work as a kind of lever when it comes to the political side of this industry; instances in which the cart being in front of the horse seems to have tentatively positive results... but as they say, the "proof is in the pudding" and when a writer is unable to demonstrate his/her ideas and have repeated failures... well, it seems that the pudding ain't quite ready, wouldn't you say?

Another important point that I've had several old timers bring to my attention is a rather logical fact... if all these writers are so good and have so much dynamite material, how is it they have time to write when they should be working that heavy show schedule they claim to have?

Of course they could just be writing when the season has a break

Craig Browning wrote:I happen to enjoy the ease of self-publishing but then I've had published material in circulation since the mid and late 1980s...

if all these writers are so good and have so much dynamite material, how is it they have time to write when they should be working that heavy show schedule they claim to have?

I don't know Craig, how did you find the time to write these publications and still find time to be in club acts and assist other magicians on their acts?


If you want the answer: easy. You simply write the book when not doing your day job. Teller, Derren Brown, David Penn, Martin Nash, not to mention the many talented magicians both who do magic as their day job and those who don't. All have written and released books and DVDs. And I can list even more well regarded web developers who write books while also doing their day job

There's absolutely nothing wrong with amateurs (and by that I mean non magicians) releasing material. I've met many very talented and learned magicians who don't do it as a main job. The fact they don't do it as a day job means they're not stuck in the rut of doing the same thing the same way day after day, and so they can come up with some real creative stuff

Out of interest where would things like Professor Hoffmann's modern magic (published 1876) fit into peoples ideas on this. That book explained many tricks both large and small. So publishing the secrets goes back a long way. in my mind it's the ease of which people can publish that has played a large part in secrets being more available. But be interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

Kolm... contrary to your desire to bring me down a peg or two I will point out that I left some nearly the same doors opened in my post as you pointed out. I also know that many dictate their books and have someone else type them up and after a handful of reviews, the book goes to print.

Finally, I don't see Derren, Criss, Steve and others pooping out three or four (or more) books a year, especially those of any reasonable content.

Admittedly, I can't multitask very well. There was a time when I could but then I didn't sleep much in those days either. As to your slam pertaining to my time back in the day... my first published books (non-magic) were done when I was in the 4th grade... they may not count on some levels (even I sort of discount them) but what I don't discount is the series of short stories I wrote in High School... also non-magic related.

My first magic-related books came out in the late 70s and early 80s but resembled those mimeographed documents mentioned earlier. One was penned shortly after my brief stint in the Navy the other while I was in a rehab center. No they never got much in way of circulation but copies are on the Magic Castle book shelves and in the hands of various collectors as is my Seance book put out by DarkArtz Publishing in 1989.

As to how these books were penned given my schedule... my shows as a kid were typically limited to the 3 months of summer with some limited work during the fall and late spring seasons. My Tech Work on shows didn't start until the early 80s and the Wondercade project and then my latter work for Abb Dickson in the Blackstone warehouse followed by my work with Kirkham. Via both of these outlets and some support by Milt Larsen, I ended up with other show related work on the technician level, including that of working with various acts in tightening their routines; Kaylin & Ginger; Ayala, Dean Hankey, Franz Harary, Valentino and several others are on that list... and if you'd like I can prove my work with the Ford Motor Company, IBM and a handful of other Fortune 500 Companies your theorists can't seem to explain away... so please stop throwing jabs when you don't know what you're talking about.

Nearly all of my books, up till about 7 years ago, were in fact penned during down time and rather deliberately, none of them were ever pushed progressively on the general market... and before it's brought up, yes, I was published on other levels and in other types of publications such as newspapers and trade magazines long before I was a contributor to the magic world... and we're talking about legit sources here.

It might likewise interest you that the observation you are using in your jab, was made by a noted member of this board and he happens to be one of the more popular writers people talk about here. As I said, it wasn't my words or observation but rather the educated opinion of someone else.


Jobasha, do understand that there were books well before the time frame I describe above, they were just rare and much more difficult to get your hands on. Very few people outside the magic world even knew of such material.

Magicians have sold books to lays for many, many years.

Devant sold his books at St Georges hall, Thurston sold his books at the theatres he worked, Houdini Probably pushed books, I have a goldin pitch book in my collection.

George Kovari had an exceptionaly good magic book he sold at his shows. Indeed, one of the effects from it was in my act for years.. Its all good stuff.
since the 50s, every television magician has had books published. David Nixon, Tommy Cooper, Paul Daniels, Ali Bongo, Pat Page, Wayne Dobson..... All have published books for the general public.

The daddy of them all, Mark Wilson... held up as the best work on magic, yet not specificaly for us..

to float away off topic...dai vernon travelled the land paying cardsharps/sharks to learn their secrets...

and duly wrote letters to his friends sharing the sleights...

during the second world war, lots of magicians got gigs entertaining troops and 'educating' them on what to look for while playing cards in far off lands...

thats when little booklets got written up and started to be popular...

that was a boom-period (in more ways than one hohoho)...

but i can name people who are not 'famous', but are very talented that have released stuff that i've found very useful...and sometimes people release a version of their current work (maybe two steps back in the exploration of that effect)...because they still use it but in a more progessive style/version...

lets use a clumsy analogy...

the 1960s...you are in a popular small time group, you play covers of the late 50s tunes, and some of the hit parade...

there's not much choice to buy from though...ballards, show tunes, pop...thats it...

mid sixties - you've joined a popular beat combo, you can now play blues, jazz, mod, soul tunes...bigger choice...you dont need to sell as many to get a number 1 either...the bigger the choice, the less of each you sell overall...

late sixties - you're in a psychedelic soul band, you play whatever the hell you want man as long as its grooooooooooovy...you can do long 9 minute versions of soul classics (vanilla fudge doing you keep me hangin' on springs to mind), with operatic vocals, heavy hammond and fuzz guitar...

much more choice, more and more copycats spring up, there's still some excellent, original thinking happening, there's also more experimental lesser known groups springing up too...

the bigger or as popularity gains for a particular "thing", more people will want to experiment as well as copy, the more people doing it, the more ideas generated....things speed up (again, look at 60s music from 64-68 and how quickly things changed)...

the quicker an idea is explored, the more likely it is to released, as many people release the same looking effect, theres also more chance of other people who dont follow the crowd can look at something and turn it on its head...

its life... the more things stay the same, the more chance of stagnation...yet at the same time the more things change, the less chance of things being explored to their full potential...

its called real life i suppose...if you're still finding your way in mentalism/magic/pottery/free-form jazz dance, whatever it is, you may hit upon something that works, and is great - but may not just be "you" enough for you to use...so you share it...

Craig Browning wrote:It might likewise interest you that the observation you are using in your jab, was made by a noted member of this board and he happens to be one of the more popular writers people talk about here. As I said, it wasn't my words or observation but rather the educated opinion of someone else.

Was it? Damn. And there was me thinking I was doing my own legwork and, y'know, finding this stuff out for myself...

Craig Browning wrote:It might likewise interest you that the observation you are using in your jab, was made by a noted member of this board and he happens to be one of the more popular writers people talk about here. As I said, it wasn't my words or observation but rather the educated opinion of someone else.

As I am sure I've mentioned before, if you are going to use a third-party to support your argument you should name that third-party, otherwise it's a bit pointless no? 302 other TM members agree with me.

Ted wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:It might likewise interest you that the observation you are using in your jab, was made by a noted member of this board and he happens to be one of the more popular writers people talk about here. As I said, it wasn't my words or observation but rather the educated opinion of someone else.

As I am sure I've mentioned before, if you are going to use a third-party to support your argument you should name that third-party, otherwise it's a bit pointless no? 302 other TM members agree with me.

And yet proper social etiquette states the exact opposite, but if you really want to know it was Paul Brook... during an email exchange some months back and he was pointing fingers at a handful of egos that will go unmentioned.

People want names because it stirs controversy and can create alienation... a loss of trust by those named and thus, creates impotence for the person that names those names. I leaned that game many years ago when it came to the political games of magic clubs and choose not to play it... interestingly most of the people I've admired over the years in this industry take the same exact position I've adopted on said front... growing away from the schoolyard gossip games.