talkmagic.co.uk

recently, his show Hero aired, as usual there was a cry of "they're all actors/stooges"...Bullsh*t...

anyway, the crux of the show was that derren helped this guy feel better about himself through various exercises/tests/hypnotic conditioning...ending in him volunteering to pilot a plane full of people safely to the ground...he did, huzzah huzzah hooooooray for the guy - new found confidence and so on and so forth...

i enjoyed it, and was a little moved at the ending, the guy was put under, brought back out inside a flight-sim...he lands it, steps out to see his friends and family, and all the people involved in the show there cheering him on...

so far, so well and good...

until i was thinking about it tonight - and how its actually against everything derren has preached before...

he's been very vocal about readers and "cold-reading", and lumps them all together along with his friend steven dawkins, that readers are preying on the weak, exploiting them, taking their money and not really wanting to help - but to further their own ego...and saying that should readers help people when they have no formal training or qualifications?

and yet...

despite no known qualifications or training, other than appearing in the crowd at a Bandler seminar and a McKenna one (i think its on youtube)as a youngster - derren has done pretty much the same as a reader, but in a more razzmatazz way...

he's used his own skill-set from the entertainment world, and tried his best to help someone out that was struggling...the guy in question had very low self esteem, no motivation, felt lost and other such things...

so he helped him experience things differently, yet derren does not seem to be officially trained in therapy, counselling, or anything else...yet he happily dabbled in someone else's life and (thankfully) it all turned out ok...

now, i know he can say he had a team of psychologists at hand, doctors and so on, no way of proving it one way or the other...

but the notion struck me, as i sat in the living room, me sat cross-legged and contemplating things, how derren's actions were just a little dangerous...

especially to some of his fans, who may now try to help others via hypnosis and other such things, without actually knowing what they are doing...

hmmmm....i find it all a bit of a double-standard...

saying all this, maybe derren IS qualified to help, and has kept it a secret, which seems a bit odd - as by declaring this would discount the stooge screamers...

oh by the way, if you want to go on about stoogery, this thread isnt for you...start one of your own...thats not what this thread is about...

Nothing is ever black and white...

apart from black and white itself..

it just struck me as odd, that really, ultimately the show was about leaving someone in a better state than when first found...yet, he's not really trained in anything to help - so, as that is part of the argument against most readers, it just seemed a little contradictory...

White is all of the colours of the spectrum Nothing is ever black and white, other than our perception of black and white. Very allegorical

I think the show is less about therapy and more about Derren realising his artistic ambitions of a) moving people and b) giving people refined perspectives on life; If art is not there to jolt you and tell you 'Start living your life! Get outside your box of black and whiteness, drab day-to-day abject, miserable existance and LIVE FOR GOD'S SAKE!'... Then it is the biggest waste of time since trying to talk sense to skeptics or evangelicals.

Here is a quote from God: 'Open your eyes- look at the life you're living, are you satisfied?'. I rest my case. (Actually it was Bob Marley but same thing- who wasn't a certified therapist btw, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a monopoly on the ancient question of how to live life as therapists definatley do ).

kind of off topic, but check Derrens Blog.

he mentions a well respected magic forum, and quotes a post that i have read. ( referencing car crash television)
since ive only read about the show here, or on Bunny, it has to be one of them.

he seemed to be really upset.

We should hope these recent specials dont result in people comparing him to the Criss Angel style of 'stooge' TV.

SamGurney wrote:White is all of the colours of the spectrum Nothing is ever black and white, other than our perception of black and white. Very allegorical

I think the show is less about therapy and more about Derren realising his artistic ambitions of a) moving people and b) giving people refined perspectives on life; If art is not there to jolt you and tell you 'Start living your life! Get outside your box of black and whiteness, drab day-to-day abject, miserable existance and LIVE FOR GOD'S SAKE!'... Then it is the biggest waste of time since trying to talk sense to skeptics or evangelicals.

Here is a quote from God: 'Open your eyes- look at the life you're living, are you satisfied?'. I rest my case. (Actually it was Bob Marley but same thing- who wasn't a certified therapist btw, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a monopoly on the ancient question of how to live life as therapists definatley do ).

yes sam, we know how to scientifically describe white and black, mine was more a comment that by its own definition we call black and white what we do because "it is"...

you've not really addressed my question, though quite possibly my question is cloudy at best...

derren has become quite keen on saying that there's no real value in going to see a reader, and that "it's all cold reading", and "they are all out to scam you"...

and backs it up, in part, quite rightly that a lot of readers have no real training in therapy, or counselling, yet are helping out people with problems dealing with life...

and then he goes on tv, does a dirty great big show on helping someone change their life...all without any training in therapy, or counselling, and the bigger question is the same one he has posed to the reader community...

what right does he have to dabble with other peoples lives? he's an entertainer...leave the life-coaching and counselling to the trained experts...

its clear derren is genuinely a nice person, thoughtful and kind - he wants to help, and is well intentioned...maybe its a shame that he doesnt see how some readers want to help too, and obviously via a different medium (pardon the pun)...but if its more about making sure you are qualified to help, then he shouldnt really be doing shows about his tinkering with peoples lives as he has such visible disdain for others who want to try and help in their own ways too?

maybe its more a theory, than a question to everyone...

Derren repeatedly made claims about giving Matt opportunities, but not forcing his hand either way. I'd add to that and say that the interactions with Matt, with or without a "dream state" were fairly normal, inasmuch as there was very little going on that was mystical or particularly psychological. If Derren had invited Matt to a petting zoo and encouraged him to touch a crocodile, would it have been cause for concern?

I'm reminded of the trick with the coin tossing previously, where Derren suggested it was "deep maths" when really the maths was shallow. Derren's interactions with Matt were relatively shallow, but played out as being deeper than they were.

Lastly, Matt didn't sign up to have his life changed. The claims made for the show were, in effect, all post hoc. Irrespective of what Derren set out to do, he never made a claim beforehand of an outcome, we're only left with a bolder Matt as a fait accompli. How he really was before, and how he really was afterwards is anyone's guess.

Mr_Grue wrote:I'm reminded of the trick with the coin tossing previously, where Derren suggested it was "deep maths" when really the maths was shallow.

In 'The events' or 'The system'?

The events.

But i guess describing it as 'deep maths' is better for tele that 'simple maths'

i disagree with the grue....

the title of the show is Hero, everything about the show was about him confronting his fears, being better than he was, improvement of the human-spirit...thats why there were no tricks to water down the event we were witnessing...

going to such extremes to enable the guy to change for the better, from his relationship with his mum, to changing job, to moving house...it all came out from that show, and therefore the kudos is shared between derren and the man involved (can't remember his name "sorry" if you are reading!)...

if the show WASN'T about that, then what was it? and in what way is it related to magic, suggestion, misdirection and showmanship - or indeed, mentalism?

I guess that at least Paul McKenna asks his subjects if they want to be changed before he actually sets about doing it!

Perhaps Derren assumed that the guy wanted a better life. But then assumption is a dangerous thing, and who are we (who is Derren) to assume that we/he knows what is best for someone? Perhaps the poor guy was actually quite happy living at home with his mum and g/f. If he'd really wanted change, perhaps he would have sought change out for himself.

It seems awfully unfair to judge someone on national TV, to find them wanting in some way, and to be so full of one's own importance that one assumes (there's that word again) that one knows what is best for them. And then to effect that change without even asking permission!

If it wasn't done with stooges, perhaps it ought to have been?

Derren these days - I don't know. Lost in a world populated by intellectuals, where being a "magician" is simply not enough.

You just wait, they'll an interview with him in a month and when they talk about his mother, he'll respond "She's in a special place right now..." then the camera will pan to her room and see a rotted corpse...

Or maybe not, maybe the guy will just be the same, but will have a bit more self confidence than he did before and will be working a better job.. Who knows.... Besides The Shadow.

Randy wrote:Or maybe not, maybe the guy will just be the same, but will have a bit more self confidence than he did before and will be working a better job.. Who knows....

thats the only bit of your post i understood