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Flourishes are one onnoing thing. for the first hour of practising you need to look at your hands and see how you are doing it but after that while you watch tv you can do it. from time to time have a look at how you are actually doing and see how much you have improved.
and now show someone. if they don't like it more practise
the most ive ever paractised was for over 500 hours learning the 'sybil cut' but now it is worth it

Just wanted to bring this subject up again, even though the debate turned a little bit into chaos last time.

I am still looking forward to reading the article in Genii, and I am determined to get a back issue of it, sooner or later…

I clicked on the links that were suggested earlier in this topic and I even downloaded a few of the videos available.

I was intrigued to learn more, so I read as much as I could and joined the forum, much like this one, and read what they had to say.

The pure flourishes such as De’vo and Jerry Cestowski, don’t use the term flourish, as they see it as an off shoot of magic, and they refuse to be defined in our terms. They call their art XCM or Xtreme Card Manipulation, although other Hand Sportz exist including Pen Spinning, Cup Stacking, Coin and Ring Manipulation.

They don’t include magic within their art, although some people are cross-artists who do both, but not at the same time, because that demeans the art and doesn’t help to advance it, of course…except for a few special moves which to me look very much like magic, such as the flipback vanish (er…it’s a vanish).

They have respect for magicians including Daryl, who has added comments to their dvds and Jeff McBride – The XCMers also recommend buying dvds by these to help learn the basics of manipulation, (although not the magical type).

They don’t like magicians who spend all their time learning Sybil Cuts, who they call Cut Kiddies like Cap Casino, because they are not pushing themselves to advance all areas of the art of XCM, from armspreads, to one hand cuts, to lots of interesting moves (flourishes), and some moves called the elementals, involve water and fire and wind and earth.
Neither do they seem to like anyone who uses sponge balls, and they say things like, thanks for always using little red balls and inspiring me NOT to become one of you.

They don’t mind magicians who use flourishes as long as the magicians don’t use their signature XCM moves, with their magic. Many of the moves are underground and hard to discover, but I wonder why if you want to advance the art would you do this. I would credit everything and then get the moves out, so that everyone can enjoy and practice and invent new stuff.

Then there’s the Ulmen Trials run by the Ulmen 4, which is a competition in Germany, where XCManipulators, or Kartenmeisters, compete to become an Ulmen Master, by completing 13 steps… the first 8 are know as the Cradle to Grave as they are supposed to represent your life… Only De’vo has got past these first 8 stages and he’s done up to number 9.
To give you an idea of difficulty, because they increase in difficulty the more you progress. The first one, is two one hand shuffles and waterfall, with two full decks (one in each hand) blindfolded, with your arms crossed and tied behind your back and the thumbs bound at the base (so you can’t move your thumbs)
Magicians are not permitted to enter the Ulmen Trials as they don’t understand the true nature of XCM or the Kartenmeisters.

I was thinking about this whole Magician Vs Flourisher argument again and I thought that it would be alright to practice the XCM moves as long as I didn’t combine it with magic – although I will still continue to use flourishes just not, the signature XCM moves or the underground stuff – that’s separate, so I ‘m just using the XCM to show off and the magic as tricks for entertainment. I think a problem with XCM is that it doesn’t have much performance in it – so you can really impress someone (especially magicians) by pulling over double Cobra cuts, but can you make someone feel an emotion as with magic, are you going to change their life, or as Derren says in Absolute Magic, will they be talking about it in twenty years time?
I know that no-body believes in real magic or witchcraft and sorcery anymore, but for a few moments within my magic, they might as well believe in the make-believe. For the moments after they are in wonder and it’s darn entertaining aswell!!

Overall the XCM is extremely, good moves and card manipulation, and I’d love to be able to do at least some of it.
I have The Encyclopaedia of Card Flourishes and The Cobra Cut collection, (I could add reviews).
I don’t think I’m a traitor to magic, because I’m going to keep them separate, like I said.
I’m looking forward to buying more XCM products, and when someone tries to say are you any good with cards, I can show-off!
I want to learn double charliers, with my hands tied behind my back,
double one-handed shuffles with my hands tied behind my back, (like the Ulmen Trials even though I can’t enter!),
a few armspreads, one-handed cuts and two-handed cuts,
how to juggle four ordinary playing cards, and a few other bits and bobs…
And I just want to be the best I can at everything I try.

and if you truely did want to start a reasonable debate on the subject, so be it. It just struck me as a rather odd way of doing so.

I was trying to provoke some debate before (and yes, I’m rather odd!) and I think I’ve given some basis of my own opinions and there’s probably some more that I just haven’t figured out yet?
There may be some debate in here still.
What are your views on the subjects?

Here’s some links btw,
http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic3068.php
http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic3851.p ... yclopaedia
www.flourishman.com
www.superhandz.com
www.handlordz.com
www.xtremehandz.com