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This post has more of a wandering start that I'd expected. Scroll to the to skip the intro

I don't know if any of you are on Twitter but recently Piff The Magic Dragon (@ThePiff) pointed everyone to a yahoo answers page where someone said they wanted to perform Piff's act from "Fool Us" and wondered if anyone knew how he could make his own 'tacular' (if you've seen the show you'll know, that's his unfolding table with internal compartment.

Piff actually declares it to have cost him £200 in the performance so this guy wasn't just ripping off an act, he was trying to do it on the cheap. The gall!

The main effect was the 4-part card transformation sold by Piff himself as VDP, and it's nothing to do with the table so presumably it was the entire routine he wanted to perform.

But it got me wondering if he wanted to perform the entire act, including the 'tacular' (and not knowing what else to call it) , he'd presumably wanted to do the line "This is my show, Pifftacular, I'm Piff and this is my tacular". It really brought to mind how much of the act he was planning to steal. Was he going to dress as a dragon? Was he going to steal the name!?



Alas we'll probably never know. Piff offered a prize for the best sarcastic answer and I think the guy asking learned his lesson.



But it did get me thinking, at what point does inspiration become cheating? I'm currently trying to improve my cups and balls routine and I've attempted to saturate myself in as many different routines as possible to see what sort of things other magicians are doing. Then while researching you think "Ooh, that's a nice little move, I could use that" and start to wonder. Is it a signature move? Would someone call me a cheat for placing a ball somewhere with one hand while misdirecting with a wand twirl in the other (that was the move I liked).

At what point does learning a move from another performance become thievery?
Most comedians would consider a single stolen joke to be totally wrong, but those are usually far more personal than I'd assume a clever sleight would be.

But then I've been a trainee magician for (just) under a year, so what do I know?

So I thought I'd ask. If I saw a move of yours in a routine on TV or youtube or a street corner, and incorporated it into a totally different routine, how angry would you feel like getting?

-Stacy

Theft implies ownership at some level. And who actually owns the trick?!
The only thing we seem to care about in magic is if someone has had the good nature to pay their inspiration £30 for a DVD for the privilege of using material they've seen them use!
I don't believe their really is much theft (in a legal sense) in magic, just good/bad manners!

Lawrence wrote:I don't believe their really is much theft (in a legal sense) in magic, just good/bad manners!

Which is why I'm asking for people's opinions, rather than a legal stance.
Perhaps theft is too strong a word in this context, but often people accuse others of 'stealing' part of their act.
Moral theft maybe? I guess plagiarism is closer the mark...

Basically I don't want to upset anyone.

-Stacy

The4thCircle wrote:Basically I don't want to upset anyone.

-Stacy

Then give whoever it is a tenner before you steal their trick

An individual move wouldn't be a problem but copying a whole routine, or the best part of it, would be a serious issue. To be honest, if I invented a move and you were able to spot and copy it then it wouldn’t be much of a move! If I showed you the move and you used it then it would depend if I’d shown you on the basis that you wouldn’t use it but if I didn’t want anyone to use the move then I wouldn’t show anyone in the first place!

There is a magician who does weddings and so on around these parts who does an act dressed as an elf but one who was described to me as, ‘Jack Dee in an Elf costume’ so the Piff persona may not be unique even if John VDP did think of it first.

Lawrence wrote:

The4thCircle wrote:Basically I don't want to upset anyone.

-Stacy

Then give whoever it is a tenner before you steal their trick

A noble option but difficult if I can't get in touch with the performer. Also possibly misguided because they may have stolen it themselves.

Additionally one of the people is on a video which is entirely in Russian and looks like it was recorded 30 odd years ago.

Mandrake wrote:An individual move wouldn't be a problem but copying a whole routine, or the best part of it, would be a serious issue.

It was only couple of individual moves from different people I was contemplating, and I couldn't even begin to steal the routine from the Russian one! (It was in Russian).

On a lot of the instructional DVDs I have, 80% of the sleights are credited (and rightly so) to different people, so I don't think of it so much as paying for usage of those moves, more as investing in the teaching.

I recently learned while looking for new cups that Gazzo (he was on Fool Us) has now released a DVD teaching his street act, but I don't think even he has the chutzpah to call someone a thief for performing a cups and balls routine... That's one trick that really is as old as the hills. Do I owe some kind of favour to the first person I see on youtube performing a particular sleight in their kitchen after searching for "cups and balls performances"?

On some level I feel like maybe I do, but then a slip of the algorithms would have led me to someone else first, neither of whom presumably have any ownership of the move in question (I doubt their master performance would be in the kitchen if they'd got any claim to such an innovation).

Am I at least making sense?

-Stacy

The4thCircle wrote:A noble option but difficult if I can't get in touch with the performer. Also possibly misguided because they may have stolen it themselves.

Additionally one of the people is on a video which is entirely in Russian and looks like it was recorded 30 odd years ago.

ah sod it then, just nick it!

If you have bought an instructional DVD you are allowed to use any of the moves contained within.

And you are going about creating your own C&B exactly the right way. Watch as many as you can, read as many as you can and work out the bits you like and the bits you don't like. Perfect.

And it sounds like you are describing the vernon wand spin vanish. Which I don't think anyone would have any moral issue with you using.

Lawrence wrote:Theft implies ownership at some level. And who actually owns the trick?!

Let alone a move.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of "the sincerest form of flattery", especially when you are new to magic. I don't think it's right to rip off another person's act and make out it's your own, in particular if you are being paid to perform.

Most cups and balls routines are in many ways generic, and so it's hard to view them as owned by anyone. However, that changes (IMHO), if you also do the entire patter another performer uses, I don't think you should do that, even if they've taught the routine on a DVD or in a book, but that's more about respect for your teacher, yourself and the audience than theft.

molesworth wrote:And it sounds like you are describing the vernon wand spin vanish. Which I don't think anyone would have any moral issue with you using.

Haha, actually I have a DVD with that vanish on it. No this was a routine where the wand spin is used as misdirection for simply openly placing a ball somewhere visible to make it look like it appeared there by magic.

Part-Timer wrote:However, that changes (IMHO), if you also do the entire patter another performer uses, I don't think you should do that, even if they've taught the routine on a DVD or in a book, but that's more about respect for your teacher, yourself and the audience than theft.

This is why I mentioned originally about comedians stealing jokes. I'd never steal lines of patter, frankly I don't see the point. all the joy in performance for me is getting to make up my own routines, gags and banter.

-Stacy

Using a move or a routine that someone has put out is not a problem if it has been released to the public with permission. But you should still put your own spin on it to make it more personal to you.

I have seen loads of Michael Ammar, Jay Sankey clones (The list goes on) and its painful to watch if you have seen the original performance. Its not theft but not original. If some copies a whole act of something or someone thay have seen that has not been put out for public use then it could be classed as theft and would p*ss of a lot of people. Eg the piff situation and he every right to be. If this someone just used his card routine I am sure that would not be a problem.

I have seen people doing my routines on youtube etc and does not bother me at all if there is credit where credit due and as I put it out for people to use.

If I did a routine that I planned to release it in the future or to keep it to my self and someone took that act and started using it I would say they stole it. (If I knew for FACT they got it from me and it wasn't a case of great minds think alike lol)

This could go either way. I have been called a thief in the past and its not nice as I would never do that without permission or unless it was general mistake.

Bottom line feel free to use anything you buy on instructional DVDs, but if it's someones professional act you saw live and couldn't find it anywhere for public use then chances are they make a living from that and they want to keep it

So DONT steal it from them.

Most moves sleights and manipulations are fine to use but most repertoires usually belong to someone else so I say get permission or make them your own.

Lee.

Technically I think it is only theft if you deprive the owner of the use of something.
If I take your car it is theft. If I painted my car to look like yours and put furry dice in it like yours [I'm guessing] then I am not stealing your car.
If I dressed like you and turned up at a magic show in my car and pretend to be you then its fraud.

Similarly If someone claimed to be Piff, and deprived him of income then it would be theft, or fraud or something.
If someone performs Piff's act then unless Piff has sold his entire act, or given permission, then there are probably design or copyright issues at play.

A lot depends on the person's intent. Do they intend to make a living from this act, like a tribute band might do, or is it just a one-off show ?

Unlike musicians, when performing magic we don't introduce our work, so there is no way to acknowledge or credit our inspiration.
Can you imagine:-
I will now perform an effect made famous by Derren Brown and I also took some inspiration from Mr. Erdanase and a psychological force from the works of Mr. Banachek. I hope you like it.

looking at it from another angle... imitation is the sincerest form of flattery !

Stop worrying. Cups And Balls is both ancient and of debatable original origin. Performing Cups And Balls is like performing a play by William Shakespeare. There is nobody alive nor no surviving estate to pay any rights to so you can just perform it for free without having to ask anyone for permission.

However if someone alive wrote some distinctive patter, poem or music to perform Cups And Balls to you may need to ask them if you can use their patter, poem or music (unless they already sold it to you). Likewise if someone invented some new special gadget/machine/particular gimmick to perform Cups And Balls with then you may have to pay them to use that special gadget. But other than that you can do what you like with it.

Like I said above Cups And Balls is of ancient origin and, although a secret, is very much in the public domain, has been published in books for hundreds of years and passed from one person to another long before books were invented. You cannot steal it. But you may be accused of stealing some very distinctive patter/poem that some identifiable living person has written. When it comes to the moves - don't worry and just get on with it.

They say there is record of cups and balls being performed in Egyptian times, so I would guess jt is difficult to have something that is truely unique.

To steal something someone has to have ownership so you cant steal a performance, you also cant protect a performance all you could protect is a device/mechanism used in performing and if you did protect it you would be showing everyone how it was performed.

Looking at this from a moral issue you will get different perspectives off many people. I was recently reading somewhere of a magician who was learning a routine from a book and they said by the time they had mastered it they realised they had made it their own. Anyone who copies any performance word for word action for action is not much of a performer in my opinion. Performing is about making soething your own and putting part of yourself into it. This is especially true with magic.

Nic Castle wrote:Performing is about making soething your own and putting part of yourself into it. This is especially true with magic.

Whixch is exactly why magic tricks and routines used to be sold without instructions or routines. The magish had to figure it all out themselves and put together their own presentation.