talkmagic.co.uk

Indeed Becky. When I say "skilled magician" I'm not necessarily meaning only technical skill. It doesn't matter how difficult a piece is technically, only how well it is performed. I personally have no preference towards slight heavy effects or self-workers. I will happily perform or watch either. Creating a magical experience for our spectators should be our priority.

I'd say that to perform a simple effect REALLY WELL can be just as demanding, and require just as much thought and rehearsal as a more technical piece. Technically easy doesn't mean easy to perform. In fact I'd go as far as to say that at times coming up with an engaging presentation for an effect (regardless of method) can be even more difficult than learning the actual mechanics.


Jim

Lady of Mystery wrote:I think that one thing worth thinking about is that being a skilled magician doesn't necessary mean that you're technically skill but could equally mean being skilled in entertaining your audience. I've been mesmerised by some very entertaining magicians performing little more than self workers and also been bored silly by some who could pull off some really knuckle busting sleights but had the presentation and personality of a dish cloth.

Absolutely.

Jim - you can be the best magician in the world but if you don't have any skills at being self employed you're never going to get any gigs to perform at. And I do give them my best performance, but the sleights are only part of the performance, and the performance is only part of the business.

Ted wrote:There's another element to turning pro that many people seem to ignore. Forget about magical abilities for one minute and consider the most important thing - becoming successfully self-employed!

I'd say that setting up a business on your own is possibly far more challenging than learning some tricks.

Yes, this! 'Learning a few tricks' is already our passion, it's fun! But understanding tax deductions? NI?

Two magicians of equal skill can be wildly different successes at being self employed if one is prepared to learn how to do marketing, read up on tax, do research and the other doesn't.

Fiftytwo, you seem to be taking this rather personally. I was referring to those guys who are to all intents and purposes, novices who after a few months learning are turning "pro". My comments were in general. There are many examples of this on probably all magic forums. I did not say that YOU don't give your best performance.

Poor performances are very common in the craft. This can be forgiven in an amateur performance - for someone who has been hired and paid on the strength of them being professional, its unacceptable. Surely you agree ?

Say you hired a painter and decorator. You get the number from the yellow pages or some website. He/they turn up on Friday morning, in a van with the name of the business, phone number etc beautifully printed on the side. You hand them the keys and set off for the weekend and, as you pass the van you notice all the best equipment available inside. You smile, confident that its in the hands of a professional. You come back on Monday open the door and walk in expecting the place to be looking lovely. Instead, it looks as though the guy next door and his mother has decorated. There's blue wall paint on the edges of the white ceiling, splashes of paint on your sofa and half the window paint is actually on the windows.
To make matters worse you then find out that this "professional", to whom you entrusted your home, only started being a "pro" a few weeks earlier. Turns out he painted his grans hall a few months ago. She liked it so much she got him to paint her pals hall. Then he painted his Aunts - a few friends and family halls later he decided to become "pro". His second job was your house.

Unacceptable ? I certainly think so. This would be unacceptable in any other profession, magic is no different.


Your first sentence I kind of agree with. However the opposite is also true - you could have all the skills in the world at being self-employed but, unless you're some sort of gifted wizard, you should not be doing paid gigs as a professional magician a few months after picking up your first magic book.


Again my previous posts were not aimed at you, I do not know you nor have I seen you perform. For all I know you may be an excellent performer.


Jim

Jim, I'm not taking it personally - I think we're agreeing at cross purposes (c;

Yes, of course being great an as entrepreneur won't make up for a bad performance. There has to be a saleable product behind the hype. You have to be prepared to put the time in on both.

I agree that both would be necessary for a successful business as a magic performer. I had mistaken your posts to mean the quality of magic didn't matter as long as you were a good businessman. I now see from your last post that was not what you meant.

As Michael Ammar said - if you are intending to earn a living solely from magic you are talking about show business. In which case you must concentrate as much on the business as you do the show.

Or something to that effect.


Jim

That's a brilliant quote! Yes, totally this. The harder decision isn't "is my magic up to this" because that's something we can get second opinions on. But with the business side we often don't even know what we don't know.

Paul Daniels used to tour the UK giving lectures and master classes on the business of magic, how to get gigs, how to maximise income, the rules and regs of being self employed - all the stuff which budding professionals need to know to avoid falling flat on their faces. The lectures and notes may still be available on DVD.

So far FiftyTwo is the only poster I agree with. But then, he is actually trying to make his living doing this, not entertaining his friends with a 'professional attitude'.

I did magic as a kid - who didn't? But I gave it up and got on with life. In my mid-twenties I took it up again, a bit out of the blue. Within three or four mounts I was performing semi-pro, and within a year I had given up the day job and was making my living exclusively from magic. It doesn't take years of practice. I could take a good actor or public speaker and turn them into a solid pro in three months.

The key thing is not the quality of your sleight of hand, or any such silliness. The key is to be a good entertainer. My advice is to work on that. Join Toastmasters International and learn to control an audience. Do some amateur dramatics and learn stage craft. If you can entertain people the rest is a dawdle.

I couldn't disagree with you more TonyB, to admit that after a year of magic you have been doing 'professional magic' is to be quite honest an insult to magic as an art. Like all performing arts it takes years of disipline, improvement and hard work to master an area of the art. I have only been doing magic for little over a year and despite practicing, performing and rehearsing daily I am still a novice with very little skill.

johnnyryanUK wrote:I couldn't disagree with you more TonyB, to admit that after a year of magic you have been doing 'professional magic' is to be quite honest an insult to magic as an art. Like all performing arts it takes years of disipline, improvement and hard work to master an area of the art. I have only been doing magic for little over a year and despite practicing, performing and rehearsing daily I am still a novice with very little skill.

Dude, chill

johnnyryanUK wrote:... to admit that after a year of magic you have been doing 'professional magic' is to be quite honest an insult to magic as an art. Like all performing arts it takes years of disipline, improvement and hard work to master an area of the art...

Those of us who actually do it - as opposed to dreaming about it or talking about it - have a completely different perspective on this question. The truth is that after a few months people were happy to pay me, and happy to rebook me. And after a year there were enough of them out there to allow me quit my day job.

It only takes years to get there if you waste those years doing the wrong things. Work on showmanship and presentation, hang out with pros, and you can make the transition in months, as I said earlier.

I am willing to bet most pros did not waste ten years learning the art. They went out and began entertaining people. It really doesn't take long.

People will pay for any old tat these days. I have seen video clips and websites of a number of these 2 - 3 month wonders, they are simply not good enough (yet) to be doing paid work at a professional level. If you think the quality of your magic (forget your gags and one liners, I'm talking strictly magic content here) was of the standard expected from a professional then good for you. But more often than not it is nowhere near the quality the public deserve.

The first paragraphs in your last two posts has a tone of superiority about them. Neither myself nor Sparejoker said we only performed for friends. Nowhere on this thread has anyone said they were dreaming about becoming pro. In fact I personally have no intention to become "pro". As for talking about it - I am a member of this forum and the members were asked their opinion, so I gave mine. I also believe that any magician on here with a genuine respect for the craft (as opposed to making a buck) would agree with me.

Or perhaps I should just keep my opinions to myself. after all I'm just an amateur who "entertains his friends with a professional attitude".


Jim

As with many magic topics, there can be a difference between people.

Some people can be ready to perform professionally as a magician in a few months. I remember the Faking It episode where there got a science student up to scratch in four weeks. OK, that was four weeks of intensive coaching and he probably didn't have a very wide range of material at the end, but on the other hand, he didn't have any real performing experience (that we knew of). Someone who has had public speaking coaching, or who has acting or other performance skills is ahead of the game in terms of presentation (which is what Tony is saying).

Having said that, Jim has a point about whether the magic really was good enough. Is the sole test whether people were willing to pay? In terms of putting food on the table, then I'd say yes. In terms of doing magic a favour, then maybe not, but compared to paying the mortgage or getting the kids new clothes, art probably comes quite far down the list.

I feel that every magician should give the best possible performance and that is not just "entertainment", but also magic. I say that a magician is a person who entertains with magic. Comedians tell jokes. After-dinner speakers have amusing anecdotes. Only magicians do magic. However, I try to live in the real world and if magic is your livelihood, well, "good enough" may be good enough. Plenty of actors are just good, rather than great, and the same is true of musicians, singers, dancers and pretty much any performer.

Should pro magicians be really good magicians? Yes. Must they be? No.

Jim, if you are good enough to be rebooked then there is nothing substandard with the magic. And if you are not good enough to be rebooked then you will never build up enough business to go pro. I know a lot of hobbiests have a superior attitude that they are in it for the art, so they are better magicians than the pros. It is simply not true. As a hobbiest you can pick and choose your gigs, you can turn down the difficult ones (biker rallies spring to mind), and you can specialise in a narrow range of magic. As a pro you don't get those choices. You have to be consistently good or you don't eat and you don't pay your bills.

The technical quality of the magic is of interest to magicians and no one else. The paying public are interested in the quality of the entertainment. The overwhelming majority of working pros are good entertainers. I know many very good magicians who cannot entertain well, and the wise among them do not think of turning pro.

I get tired of the attitude you find on these forums (expressed by another poster, not you) that it takes years and decades of practicing at home before you are good enough to go out and entertain people. You get the same attitude in clubs, which is why many pros drift away from clubs.

The original poster was wondering how long it takes before he can consider going pro. As a pro I still say that he needs to make sure his presentational skills are up to scratch. When those skills are in place he is ready. It can be as short as a few months.

On top of the presentational skills he will need solid business skills. Some people have these naturally, while others will spend a lifetime learning the business part of show business. Hobbiests do not like to hear this, but magic comes third behind entertainment and business skills in the world of the pro.