A heckle too far.... Assaulted for no reason.

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A heckle too far.... Assaulted for no reason.

Postby magicmonkey » Jun 30th, '06, 21:06



Hi one and all.

I do not know why I am posting this for all to see, I guess I am just still livid at what happened to me last night. Maybe others should be aware of what could happen. One of my and others' here great interests is in practicing the impossible, however, I did not believe that this level of stupidity was attainable.

Read on if you like, don't bother if you don't want to. I care not, only that I have set down something that I really didn't need. Life has been hard enough and nearly put me under a few times, this year no exception, and it has been magic that has kept my from going round the bend of recent years. We all have problems, some worse than others. I try not impose mine on other people, instead trying to make them smile which in turn cheers me up no end.

What follows is a letter drafted by myself today.
It may seem like a bit of a rambling rant, but I had to record as much as I could of the events as I am disgusted by the treatment I received.

If the mods think it was unwise to post this, please do pm me and I will edit accordingly. I would just rather this was told in full or not at all.
If anyone has an opinion, please feel free to add it or pm me.

I am as yet unsure as to who will receive this letter next week.
The managing director of the pub in question is a definate possibility.........

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Without prejudice....

I have always had an interest in magic. Manipulation of every day objects can look so effective and I love the happiness and general good feeling that this can generate.
I have also always been aware that some people scoff at it, and I myself am not a fan of some styles of magic, but respect the time and effort that people put into any new skill or effect. It takes courage to attempt to entertain people with magic as they are very often looking for a way to trip you up and find out how you are doing effects.
I have for some time been practicing levitation of objects around me, and recently with much practice my TK skills have reached new heights. It has been magic that has kept me from going round the bend of recent years. We all have problems, some worse than others. I try not to impose mine on other people, instead trying to make them smile which in turn cheers me up no end.

I was in fact forcibly removed from a pub last night for this.
I am considering legal action.

I walked in to a pub alone on our busy town centre nightclub strip at 10.55 stone cold sober. I had been outside all evening practicing quietly by myself watching the noisy night unfold. It’s good to see it from a different perspective, not getting involved, and I mulling over the type of people that frequented the town and how they would take to what I have to offer.
It can get rowdy in town at this time, so I was looking for a pub that had a few people, possibly looking bored, that had a quiet spot I could quietly enjoy a pint and practice a little magic. If I generated interest, I would show something and enjoy the impromptu experience but would force my interests on no one. I have been also seeing which places in town could be interested in hiring a different kind of entertainment and this was on my shortlist. My skills have improved tenfold of late and I am close to starting out getting paid for this and possibly even helping an establishment or two increase their takings at the weekend. Embarking on any career takes courage and determination; I have been ready for a few different ones in my 31 short years. This career path like any other has risks and pitfalls that have to be overcome, one of them seems that potentially being humiliated by those you seek to make happy is a constant working hazard. Everyone wants to know how you do things but as a rule of thumb you have to keep working out new ways not to let on, no matter how much you would like it to be able tell them. As an aside, friends I believe are the hardest for this as I like to be able to speak openly with them at all times and not be secretive.

The pub in question used to be always busy as I remember it having been a trouble free guest there at numerous occasions in the past, but this time it was about the quietest pub on the strip. Maybe we could help each other out I thought. I guess the last barrier to overcome is my own confidence. This increases with each person that shows an interest, and I find that the drunk are good experience as if you can keep them under control, you can with anyone! At the end of the night, I would have asked for a moment of the manager’s time to discuss entertainment and would have been sober as I did so. If she were not interested, I would have smiled, thanked her for her time and left happy that I had tried.
The theme of this bar, I imagine, is that of one where you can enjoy their entertainment or that that you create for yourself. A few old chaps in the corner playing dominos would not seem out of place to me, as would it not if I saw cards being toyed with or people attempting bar trickery. I would shrug and think nothing of it as it was a theme pub after all.
So anyway, I greeted the barman with a smile and brief conversation partly about closing time which turned out to be midnight, ordered a pint and exchanged a few kind words with someone enjoying a pint alone at the bar.
Thanking the barman and bidding a good evening to both, I took my pint over to a vacant barrel used as a table and started practicing magic as I often do with cards, coins and my new found powers. I disturbed and indeed spoke to no one. There were other seats and tables available, but the barrel seemed a good self contained surface to practice on. If I was pulling out rabbits that would be one thing, least of all a health risk, but nothing I did would leave or indeed damage the barrel, much less run off into the kitchen.

I knew as sometimes can happen when practicing magic that someone may come over to watch. I have no problem with this, and will show them things other than what I am practicing should they ask. “Show me a card trick” is a common one, although I am often already shuffling them already. I do not play cards with them unless it is suggested, far less bet on them; maybe this could seem strange to some. Patience anyone?
On this occasion, it was a woman I now know is known locally for being usually paralytic and a nuisance. Last night was no exception, she was very drunk and doing the rounds in the pub seemingly from table to table. Eventually her curiosity brought her loudly over to me. Meanwhile the fruit machine continued to be fed, the lovers chatted and the rest carried on with their evening.
I had in fact seen her before, last Tuesday outside the supermarket at 6am while on my way to work. She had bummed a roll up off me then, and her friend asked me to buy two bottles of cider for them as they were banned from the store! They had slept rough there that night. I was even challenged at the door there by security as they thought I was with these people, even though I had refused to buy them alcohol for the sake of my conscience as much as anything. He thought I was banned from the store also. I told him he was mistaken and to show me video or photographic proof as I am local and have shopped there for years. He spoke to his boss and confirmed reluctantly that he had been mistaken.

Still, I continued with my practice, continuing not to disturb any of the pub’s other guests. I approached no one, however, people were welcome to watch me and interact should they wish.
I had noticed a little interest in my endeavours, other than from the drunken woman. Sometimes the fruit machine feeder’s accomplice would glance across with scant interest as the effect I had been practicing, while not large scale enough to break the boundaries of the barrel is impressive nonetheless when attention is paid to what is actually happening and you see what is really going on with no explanation. I even noticed members of the bar staff take an interest in what I was doing, one with what appeared to be a positive view (the guy that had serve me my one and only pint).
Another I believe could have thought I was drunk as when she had walked past collecting glasses I had my hand out at arms length moving it around in circles and she gave a strange look to me. Had she been more observant, she would have noticed that the rizla 3 inches below my finger was also moving in circles of its own accord. It was not being done how you may at first think.

The drunken woman had already been doing the rounds in the pub, talking to all and sundry and was becoming a little bit of a nuisance.
She was quite difficult to handle from my point of view as she was so drunk and had already been given a police penalty that evening for being abusive elsewhere (the hospital I believe, she had proudly shown me the penalty note). She wanted to watch my magic and for me to show her a card trick as well as what I was practicing. This kept her out of others way for a while and out of trouble. A good thing for the pub I feel. I would have liked for her to leave me alone after a while, but am too nice for my own good at times, and continued to keep her out of others’ way by letting her watch me practice.

A friend walked past that I hadn't seen for around 5 years and we started chatting and seeing how each other had been. It is always good to see an old friend. The brother of this friend incidentally worked at the pub; it will become apparent why this is relevant shortly.
The woman was by now getting very vocal and started butting in and even showed my friend the penalty note bragging loudly that she had told people to "f*** off!". This was embarrassing to say the least and I mouthed to my friend with a worried smile the words "help me".
He had been sitting nearby with some people he had met that evening that had been happily plying him with alcohol as they had come to sit at the table where he had been drinking alone and they had got chatting.

He asked what I was up to and I told him I was practicing my magic and asked if he and his new friends would like to see some. He was keen, and so I said I would go and get another pint and be across in a moment. He was going to ask them if they wanted to see .

Unfortunately, aforesaid drunk woman followed me to the bar.
She was asking me to give her a pound so she could put it towards another drink. Like the first time I had seen her, I refused. She was not a friend of mine, I considered this very rude and to be honest wanted this woman to leave me alone but still, I told her kindly and smiling that I had been showing her some interesting things and joking that she should be buying me a drink. She went off to bug another table, swaying uncontrollably.

I hadn’t realized that the manager of the pub had also lost patience with this woman. With jovial spirits and another smile, when it was my turn I ordered my next pint.

I was told they weren’t serving anymore.
Two very appealing pints had just moments before been handed across the bar.
I hadn’t checked my watch, but also hadn’t heard any bell or last order call so asked why they stopped serving so early. It was something along the lines of a shrug that I was given in reply. I said that he had just served someone, and a few people just arriving at the bar were just starting to get served. I was told it was the manager’s decision.
I then realised that she must have thought that I was with this drunken woman. All I had wanted that evening was a quiet place to practice what may soon be a new trade for me, and it was because of confidence that it had taken me until 10.55 to enter a pub and do so. I was in all likelihood the most sober guest in the pub at this time having only had 1 pint.
If the manager was under the impression that I was drunk, or indeed friends with the nuisance, then she was very mistaken on both counts. It was their guest who had been annoying people including me. As far as I am aware, drunkenness is not contagious. If I show magic to cheer up a homeless person, does that make me homeless by association? I think not.

I asked why she had made this decision and told him that I did not know the drunken woman. Within a moment or two, I looked to my right and realised that a huge bouncer had appeared and was telling me to leave. “Why?” I asked, as I was not drunk and only consumed the one pint that evening that they themselves had served me. I said that I had done nothing to warrant this, and that I did not know that woman.
Incidentally, the bouncer was the brother of my friend that waited at the table for me to come and have a chat and show them some magic. I had met him a couple of times some years before in another local pub I was at with my friend and had recognized him as such a few weeks ago when I had seen him working there.
I knew that he was only doing his job and acting upon instruction from his manager, which I respected no matter how wrong that instruction had been.
I was told that the manager did not have to give reason and had the right to serve whomsoever she pleases. I spent many years in the hospitality industry in both high class and run of the mill places and know this is true of the licensee wherever you are.
I wanted to stay as I had found somewhere suitable and sheltered to quietly practice but my pleas fell on deaf ears that were not bothered with the truth of the matter. He was not listening to me at all.
I was told I had one last chance to leave or he would forcibly make me. I knew it was time to concede defeat, despite having done no wrong, and in fact having kept their most problematic guest out of the way for a short while.

I said ok, and that I would leave and turned away to do so, walking towards the door.
I then remembered that I had left my cards and a few other items on the table where I had been only moments before enjoying my one and only pint and some unobtrusive practice.
I told the bouncer, my friends’ brother, that I had some property on the table where I had been and asked if I could get it. I was told that this was ok.
The table was around 10 feet away to my right. I turned to retrieve my property and the next thing I knew, I was being contorted into a painful half nelson with my arms crushed together behind my head. Not only was my ejection from the pub completely unnecessary, this new turn of events was over the top and in truth an assault on me by a member of the pub’s staff.

Yes, they have a right to serve who they like, and yes they have the right to use reasonable force to remove anyone from their pub that they want to leave that refuses to.
I had agreed to leave the pub and was walking towards the door. I had been given permission to retrieve my own property from where I had been.
The force used was totally unreasonable, painful and legally an assault as no force was needed because I was on my way out of the pub anyway via my belongings.

Whatever I had been accused of by the manager was obviously wrong as was the decision to eject a harmless guest quietly amusing himself and anyone else who showed interest.
Ironically, in trying to keep trouble from the pub, this decision directly led to my being assaulted by own of the pub’s very own employees.
My treatment by all involved was disgusting,

Outside and finally released by the bouncer’s grip I waited, not moving until my belongings had been collected by another member of staff and handed to me. I was told that the property line ended a bit further from where I had been released from an unnecessary and painful assault and promptly moved beyond and on to the public footpath.
The next thing I know the police are there telling me to move from the pub. I told them I had and was outside. I was just standing there, wondering why on earth that had just happened and collecting my thoughts on where to go next. The drunken woman was still shouting the odds determined to make a fool out of herself and unfortunately me too. The police spoke to her by her first name, confirming once and for all that she was known locally for being a nuisance.

I told them I had been assaulted and I instantly knew that they would do nothing.
It would have been a different story if I had put someone into a painful hold which I would not do. I was not drunk, and would have probably been legally allowed to drive, although this is also something I would not do even after just one pint. I just said that I was standing there wondering where I would go next as most of the pubs in town were not as suitable for a quiet drink at this time. It was a busy night in town and I know that police, bouncers and management have to deal with drunken people that they have sold alcohol to, but all because of one major error in judgment I was left assaulted and humiliated.

I told the police I was waiting for my friend who I hadn’t seen for years to return to where he had been at the front of the pub, so I could say goodbye. I would not have reentered the pub as this was right at the front and the front of the pub had open panels across its entirety. I was on public pavement posing no threat, but they told me that if he wanted to come and talk to me he would be there now. They didn’t know that my friend had been talking to his brother asking what had just happened, and did come out to talk shortly after.

Nevertheless, I moved just beyond the side of the pub by a few inches and knelt down unmoving telling the police that I’ll stay there while I decide what to do next. They wanted me to move completely away from the pub but I was not exactly in the mood anymore to cooperate with being told what to do. Just because most of the town was plastered, it doesn’t mean that one or two people, me included, could not be sober.
I really did think that a second bad decision was about to be made by someone on my behalf and that I would be arrested for no reason.
They told me they would be close by and watching me, and moved across the street and as promised kept their beady eyes on me.
Kneeling down, ejected and dejected, I just got two coins out from my pocket and started to practice a discreet trick that often helps me to relax when negative things happen.

Thankfully, right in front of the police that had doubted me, my friend came out a few minutes later to talk to me.
He was understandably defensive of his brother’s actions, however, I told him I understood he was acting upon orders from his boss and respected this, this is why I had decided to agree to leave, but told him straight that he did go over the top and assault was not needed. I was neither drunk, nor a threat and was doing as I had been asked.

It’s all quite ironic really, the pint I had attempted to order would have been my last, but due to the manager getting a situation seriously wrong my friend and I went off and found another pub. He stayed for a drink and then went back to the previous pub where his brother worked, and I stayed and instead of staying sober and showing everyone good time, I had more to drink.
Not too much, but more than I would have.

Will I prosecute?
I don’t know to be honest.
I would not want my friend’s brother charged with assault, although the pub chain should be held accountable for decisions that they and their management make both right and wrong. On this occasion they were very wrong and ordered their staff to take action upon an innocent person. CCTV footage both inside the pub and also on the street would prove that what I say here about me not knowing the drunken woman and having been outside all night not drinking in any pub other than theirs is the truth.

I hope this can be solved amicably. All I really want is an apology from the management and the lifting of the unnecessary ban from their pub that has now been imposed on me.

This tale is told without prejudice or Ill feeling.

not a fan of sigs, so I won't bother adding o..... oh
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Postby AJ82 » Jun 30th, '06, 21:19

Thats so wrong and I honesty think you should take this further. Yes I know your friends brother work there but you were forcefully removed from the pub for no reason and treating in an unprofessional way. You even got a ban. I face prejudice a lot of the time due to my disability but I usually let this go due to peoples lack of understanding. Your prejudice you experienced is due to people not seeing or listening to the truth. This is the worst type of prejudice because it is with out reason. Take it further. Get a copy of the CCTV. You owe it to yourself.

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Postby magicdiscoman » Jun 30th, '06, 21:24

slightly confused mr monkey did the bouncer that asked you to leave also let you go for your kit then attacked you. :?:
if so then it was definatly an unprovoked assult and I'm afraid you need to do him.

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Postby Renato » Jun 30th, '06, 21:32

That really is a disgusting thing to happen to you.

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Postby Wukfit » Jun 30th, '06, 22:13

My advise would be:
Go to to your local car auction and buy the cheapest car you can find for cash... Wait outside the pub in question and when the offending bouncer walks out of the pub to go home... run the sucker over... remembering of course to remove any traces of your dna from the scene of the crime and of course wear a hoodie (they seem to work as a disguise just watch crimewatch..)
Then go home with the satisfaction of knowing justice has been served.

In the real world although I completley agree you have been wronged bigtime.. but for all the hassle and end result of doing the right thing and reporting said bouncer, I think realistically you would be better off putting it down to a bad experience and forgetting about the whole thing.

Life just sucks sometimes huh?

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Postby Renato » Jun 30th, '06, 22:16

But can you and should you just leave someone like that roaming free who might do it again to someone else?

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Postby dat8962 » Jun 30th, '06, 22:17

You don't have any grounds for a prosecution unless you try a civil action which you will find nigh on impossible to prove unless you have physical injuries and can prove that they were related to this incident. At best you could make a complaint to the owners but I suspect that it will fall on deaf ears.

This is one way however to deal with this that will cost the pub.

You mention that they have CCTV. It is best practice for them to display a CCTV sign with a phone number on the sign of who manages the CCTV system.

Phone the number and tell them that you want a SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST FORM. This entitles you under the Data Protection act to a copy of the CCTV tape and they are legally obliged to provide it once it has been requested.

They will ask you on the form to provide the data and time that you were in the premises, a recent photo of yourself to match up to the CCTV footage, and a fee of no more than £10.

The problem for them is that they legally have to comply otherwise they CAN be prosecuted and it will cost them in the region of £200 to supply you with the copy.

WHY? You see they HAVE TO blank out everyone elses faces other than yours in order to meet the other people's Data Protection rights.

They can't refuse to provide this copy as they will have breaced the Data Protection Act as you are entitled to a copy of any data that is held on you (which the CCTV tape is). If their CCTV system isn't registered wth the Data Protection Commissioner, it is illegal and you can then take them to court.

It's an indepth process but above is all that you need to know. You can then walk into their premises once a week, record the date and time and then pay your £10 and they have to provide another copy, and another and so on....

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Postby byron0512 » Jul 1st, '06, 00:08

I don't offer advice - it can come round and bite you. But I can say what I would perhaps do ...

Its the kind of people story newspapers - particularly local ones - are interested in. I know its an old cliche to say 'I'll go to the papers' but its better than suing anyone.

We have a sue culture, and its one which I would not encourage. Sue if you have real injuries or a loss of income for any reason. that is what the money is for.

But what has happened is unfair to you in the extreme. Give it a few days to chill - ask some people you know will give you honest advice and blow off steam.

Then decide, is it worth the personal hassle, or will you just put it down to experience?

There is one other surprising route.

Write to the pub - send some flowers too (they are more likely to read a letter if you do that and take you seriously! - you could try a giant cookie from millies for something different). Apologise for the misundrstanding and briefly sumerise your point of view. Explain you don't hold it against them either, and you could understand their point of view. then ask if they would mind if you were to talk to the manager about a future gig (as you were thinking of anyway) and ask if you could have a meeting at some other time than opening hours to show what you can do. Offer the first performance free as a good will gesture.

And if they turn it down, its their loss!

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Postby Pcwizme » Jul 1st, '06, 01:57

is it a Free house of a brewary owned pub? if its a brewary owned pub contact the brewary they will over throw it normally as its a manager not doing what he is meant to, mention that you wont go to court as you feel it a watse of time and energy and that it would only mate matters worse

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Postby Yorkshire Pudding » Jul 1st, '06, 08:39

Phone the number and tell them that you want a SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST FORM.


I never knew about that! Thanks DAT, a constructive and interesting response. Someone with a grudge (and a few spare quid) could cause chaos requesting these!

I used to be a licensee with a full on license, I owned a restaurant (with a magically themed bar incidentally). I had to have CCTV in the bar and didn't even know about this myself.... I'm glad I didn't! :)

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Postby dat8962 » Jul 1st, '06, 08:51

It's part of what I do for a living and it's a potential ightmare for the CCTV user.

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Postby moonbeam » Jul 1st, '06, 10:43

dat8962 wrote:It's part of what I do for a living and it's a potential ightmare for the CCTV user.

Who foots the £200 bill?
Is it the CCTV company or the brewery/pub?

If it's the CCTV company then you're not really getting back at the pub. If it's the brewery/pub then yea go for it lol :roll:

Nice one btw Dat, I'm gonna have to remember this 1 heh heh :wink:

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Postby dat8962 » Jul 1st, '06, 10:54

The pub would foot the bill- if a business hired a supplier to manage their system then the supplier should have this written into their contract otherwise they're eating away at their profit margin each time. If you're running a network of pubs or branches then imagine this multiplied.......

There are some things that a business can do - they can refuse to provide the footage if, and only if they can argue that in providing the data you would use it for criminal intent.

You can write to them and ask them for their policy statement on CCTV in which it should:

+ state the purpose of the CCTV scheme and what it will be used for
+ how they will process the data
+ how long they will retain the data (usually it's between 2 and 4 weeks but some businesses retain for much longer).

The point is that you're not allowed to collect any data on people just for the sake of it, and if you do coollect data, the individual has a legal right to see it.

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Postby Tomo » Jul 1st, '06, 11:45

Subject access request forms are a seriously good way of showing that you have all the power, which is nice.

Now, in my case, when the woman initially came over, and having known she was trouble, I'd have finished my pint, packed up and left, perhaps making like I was going for a slash and was coming back ;) There's nothing like a patsy left waiting for nothing to put distance between you and trouble.

Of course, you might have missed bumping into your mate, but you might equally have seen him on the way out or in the street too.

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Postby dat8962 » Jul 1st, '06, 13:27

Doesn't seem as if your mate did too much to help YOUR situation either, particularly as it was his brother on the door.

I'd have expected more consideration

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