talkmagic.co.uk

iummydd wrote:And you weren't a non-magician until you started to learn magic?

You're totally missing my point.
What I mean is that I am against magicians revealing magic for public audience on international TV.
Learning the secrets doesn't automatically make everybody magicians as you seem to think. Only a few develope the interest for magic, others learn how to ruin a show and heckle.
I say: Teach magic to those truly interested in magic, not to general audience. Why isn't it allowed here in TM to talk directly about tricks and discuss the secrets, reveiling them? I'm pretty sure you would get deleted very quickly here. What's the difference? And here you have people truly interested in magic. It's because then you would become like the Masked Magician...

Mandrake wrote:Has anyone here actually taken a Magician's Oath?

Well, if you join IBM, you have to sign your name under the Magician's Oath, so I guess the answer to your quiestion would be: Yes.

i've no wish to fan the flames but anway...

don't forget, the majority of people who learnt magic post WWII did so from magic-exposure booklets published by an amateur or two; or rather by people who would technically have no right to do so...

as well as others who did it to "help" the soldiers - to stop them getting ripped off from card sharks...

and as for some sleights - they were blatantly "ripped off" from those card sharks..."set a thief to catch a thief"...one does it to cheat at cards for money, another to cheat at cards via entertainment....and money...

It was done at a time when some amateurs were frustrated at the same old effects being performed by the same people...if you think about it, those booklets had far reaching consequences - good and bad...royal road is "exposure" in a certain light...

if those books didnt get published - the majority of us wouldnt be into magic now, we would of lost out on some classic magicians and mentalists too...its that fine line walked upon of exposure/revelations and paying your bills...

i certainly would never reveal any secrets myself, but i suppose sometimes you have to take a step back and think about the pro's and con's of certain material being revealed...sometimes it is a good thing and thats occasionally hard for magicians to accept...

just type "card tricks" into amazon for example...

Please read my post abraxus.
I never said I don't think books or videos should not be made. What I am concerned about is guys like Penn and Teller that reveal magic for general audience. If you are interested in learning about magic, you buy some books or DVDs and practice. Great!
But if you don't know what to do, you turn on your TV and there you see Penn and Teller revealing magic tricks... for everybody. I think there is a difference between telling magic to "want to be magicians" or to general audience that just want to be entertained or kill time.

erm...i wasn't having a go at anyone, just saying my point of view in general...

gunnarkr wrote:Well, if you join IBM, you have to sign your name under the Magician's Oath

Interesting - thanks for the information. If anyone knows of other societies which have this, or who are thinking of introducing it, as part of their admission/membershiprequirements it would be good to know. As one or two famous names have been excluded from the Magic Circle I would imagine that they have something along these lines.

Has anyone actually had someone come up to them and say - "I saw Penn and Teller do that on TV" or similiar words.

They on TV so infrequent in the UK - I doubt most people has seen them for a few years now.

You might catch the odd show on one of the lesser Sky channels.

Mandrake wrote:... thanks for the information. If anyone knows of other societies which have this...

The S.A.M. (Society of American Magicians) has the following:

If accepted as a Member, I agree to do my best to elevate the Art of Magic and to abide by the Constitution, By-laws, Code of Ethics and Ritual of the Society of American Magicians.

I shall endeavor to cooperate with the Society in the promotion of its objectives and to promote harmony among those interested in magic and to advance the ethics of the profession.

I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television, radio or in any manner whatsoever.

I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature form to the public.

I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic.

I am opposed to placing any legitimate performer in a predicament while that person is before an audience.

Thank you. Perhaps we should adopt something like that as part of the original terms & conditions before registration is approved?

Penn and Teller bring great comedy and shock to magic. They have brilliant imaginations, providing that often pessimistic and perverse point of view. Their TV show Bullsh*t is absolutely fantastic, maybe I love it because I grew up on George Carlin, but it is worth the watch.

I recently watched their 2005 special Off The Deep End, in which they revealed some secrets (a multiple girl production, vanishing a submarine) and yet they are still able to perform their own show to an audience every day. The secrets that they expose are old OLD OLD concepts, which still have their relevance today, but are simply historical. I appreciate the preservation of history, but I believe that the greatest illusion still has not yet been created, and Penn and Teller stimulate today’s magicians to be more creative. We are living in a high tech world full of high tech people, and the old hat isn’t what they want. Sleight of hand, however, is always going to be the same today as it was 100 years ago because the props haven't changed (your hands). But giving an audience a "Backstage" trick is a wonderful bonus to a routine, showing people a little GETS THEM INTERESTED, if only for the few moments they are with you.

It's all in the presentation. Penn and Teller could probably sit in a room with you, show you how a trick is done, and then fool you with it again five minutes later. If I flash a palmed object, I expose the secret, but I also know to regain their attention and still baffle them with the effect.

I like them and hope they keep doing what they're doing.
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mandrake wrote

That's actually the 'sucker' part of one routine using the silk to real egg

sorry to dissagree but the way I saw the trick presented was...
the trick was done
the trick was exposed
the trick was done another way

There are many sucker tricks out there, hippity hop rabbits for example makes you belive the rabbits are black one side and white the other but it is never exposed.
The sucker die routine makes you belive the die slides to dissapear but is never shown
Colour deception shows the chips being turned over like coins, but this is not a magic move, it is a simple ordinary act hence no magical exposure, and then the chips are magicaly changed and handed out.

You could argue that any exposed trick if followed by a differing method of doing the same trick was allowable under this "sucker" rule. I don't for one minute believe that any of us thinks this, but this discusion does show that we all draw our lines at differing points on this subject.

And long may we differ

I have to admit, although I have never tried to learn any of their magic (well, maybe one), they were one of the biggest inspirations for me to get into magic. All Hale P&T to getting new talent into the circle of things.

Shouldn't we then reveal magic tricks here in TM?
Imagine how many magicians-to-be would join and the forum would be such an inspiration

Mandrake wrote:Thank you. Perhaps we should adopt something like that as part of the original terms & conditions before registration is approved?

I agree and would not hesitate to agree to it. Fortunately, you do have safe guards in place (the restricted forums) to prevent secrets from easy access.

I think that would-be magicians (to comment on Gunnar's post) can learn enough from the open forums (not necessarily secrets, but book, effect and dvd recomendations are made there) and should be patient and wait to be invited into the restricted forums. If someone is entering magic and expects to get all of the answers easily, they will probably not work hard enough on their effects and presentation and may not have the patience needed to be assets to the magic community. (steps off soapbox)

I have read and reread all the above messages and have changed my stance slightly do these enlighted readings.
I have come to think that exposure is of course nessasary in order to get some interested in magic, but feel that their must be a minimum of work involved from the potential ne magicians themselves.
The marvins magic sets show secrets, and as a kid magician I have to be aware of what these kits contain, they spark a childs imagination and if the kid works hard will find a new hobby in which they will achive great joy. An example of how I have used such simple exposure to mutual advantage is with a rope routine. The child has learnt proffessors nightmare(PN) and shouts out when I perform it, I ignore and go straight into slydinis false count, which confusess them even though they know how PN works, then a similar routine to fibre optics for sillyness, after the show the kid always comes up and says "I know how you did that rope trick" usually they only know the PN bit. I never expose but I always compliment them on what they have learnt, on the practise they have done etc.
To get to this point the kid has had to open the box, read the instructions and practise a bit untill the trick is understood, even if only poorly. To know tricks from books, you have to make the effort to read and understand them (something I fail to do with many of my own magic books)
I think this is different to just turning on the TV and suddenly getting tricks exposed to people who may or may not wish to get into magic.
It is easy to get into magic, if you find it to much hard work to find magic tricks then are you realy the sort of person who will spend hours and hours practising and learning?
I wish I could play the piano like my brother in law, and if I practised two hours a day for ten years I proberbly could.