talkmagic.co.uk

...short-cut artists though, well they're in every area of entertainment...

ok, i've been playing the guitar since i was 14..so now, gulp twenty years on i've seen a few players (as opposed to playa's gangster style) in my time that can whizz up and down those pentatonic blues scales as fast as a speed-freak jogs his leg or chews gum...

but they're rubbish...the audience knows that, i know that, and the guitarist himself probably knows that deep down too...there's no soul or emotion to it...

If you take Hendrix as an example ok, he played as a rythmn section guitarist for Little Richard, Isley Brothers, Ike and Tina Turner's band,(amongst others) he learnt things along the way, he did what was expected...he also got sacked from Little Richard's band for showing off and playing the guitar behind his head and stealing the spotlight...

But eventually, through learning from the past but also experimenting, trying out a few ideas himself, he developed what he did into something else....a symbiosis of the old and new...

He didn't know every single blues song ever written, but he knew enough...he was also bursting with creativity and experimentation...and he created something out of all that...a hybrid, moveable jazz chords, soul, deep funk, stax, blues...and it became something else...some called it "cosmic blues" if memory serves me...

As an aside, did you know Hendrix wanted Stephen Stills to be in The Experience? Imagine that...a country/folk background, deep harmonising, yet Mr. Stills was also a mighty fine guitarist and organ player...(his first solo album - genius!)

anyway, so i feel its all completely the same with magic, and any other form of entertainment...you mix and match...you cross-pollenate...see what happens...otherwise things become stale and carbon copies of one another...

Imagine if someone gave advice to Luke Jermay when he was 16 or so, that he should wait until he was older cos he wouldnt be taken seriously as a performer...you wouldnt of had Seven Deceptions, you wouldnt have Building Blocks...building blocks is up there for me with Corinda...

This isnt a dig at anyone, but really, if i was in a resturant and i saw a sign advertising a psychic...i would think "why the hell if this guy is really psychic would he work in a resturant? why isnt he just doing a dozen readings a year for famous clientelle and earning a fortune?"

if it said "psychic entertainer", id be excited, cos it will be entertaining...dressed up in a psychic delivery...

Anway, each to their own, in my world you can mix elegant sublime card effects and then move onto deeper mind effects easily...we all use tools of the trade, whether that be a pass or one of the many centre tears, cold reading skills, flim flam, muscle reading...they are all skills...

skills that are used to tell a story, perform oddities and weerdness and befuddle, confuse, baffle and most importantly entertain people that want to go on the same journey...

there...waffle over with!

Imagine if someone gave advice to Luke Jermay when he was 16 or so, that he should wait until he was older cos he wouldnt be taken seriously as a performer...you wouldnt of had Seven Deceptions, you wouldnt have Building Blocks...building blocks is up there for me with Corinda...


Excuse me?

Luke was corresponding with ME regularly in the days, months & years prior to SEVEN DECEPTIONS. I was one of the primary people telling him to stop being so shy and in doubt of his abilities and insights (along with Kenton). I was also the one that chewed him out for getting so head strong due to his early success and how it affected him (success will do that to people).

I'd have to say that my influence lead to something good, wouldn't you?

In the brief time it took Luke to jump from the mode of being that shy and backward kid to where he is today I've also watched a few dozen others that were cock-sure and headstrong "do it their way" and fall flat on their face, only to come back and ask me what went wrong...

I know what you are saying abraxus and I agree with you to a point. The area I don't agree on however is the act of giving folks carte blanche to do whatever the heck they feel like doing and referring to it as being "magic" or worse "Mentalism"... rules, guidelines, rules of thumb whatever you want to call them they exist for reasons as do the divisions and seperations between this form of magic vs. that.

Just as there was only one Hendrix or Sachmo or Durante the fact remains that we aren't going to be pulling the Luke Jermay and Steven Shaw types out of a hat on any sort of regular basis anytime soon. The majority of these pot pourri performers STINK and they are the very demonstration as to the kind of "performance" we hear and talk about all the time, that not only hurts the reputation of magic on the whole, it likewise keeps the serious minded, such as yourself, from being able to progress along a path that isn't filled with logical reasons for non-support from within the laity.

Good Magic is like Good Sex... it's just harder to find...

That was true two-decades or so ago when Max made said proclomation and it remains true today.

Craig... again, a smashing post.

However... your 'black is black, white is white' attitude contradicts your own theories.

Without diversification, there is no evolution.

Enough said.

..and just to clarify, i didnt know who consulted/encouraged Luke apart from the work that was printed in Kenton's books- so don't take what i said as a poke at you please...

im not a mind-reader!

I don't know anything about Luke Jermay except that James Biss on the Magic Cafe called him "potentially talented" in a clever put down. Not that I am the sort to stir up trouble of course.....................

Charlie Parker was thrown off the stage when he couldn't keep up. He literally retreated to the hills with a stack of records and 'woodshedded' until he could play circles around everyone. Jazz provides a suitable analogy as does Seige's feint to Darwin and Mendelson...strength comes from diversity...Mr Brown is a classic example of the hybrid approach and he doesn't seem to have done too badly... so danca samba, so danca samba, vai, vai, vai, vai, vai...

I'll concede to all the experts around here...

From this point forward anyone that wants to know how to do what now passes and has be REDEFINED to be "Mentalism" ask these guys that have been doing it for the past... few years... let's sweep all the darker aspects and stuff we don't want to deal with related to this craft under a nearby rug and forget it ever existed and just be happy and blissful doing our TRICKS.

It's nice to know I don't know my ass from a hole in a ground...

Case in point - Derren Brown. A lot of people know about his magic background - it's something he talks about quite openly. Heck, he's even started sneaking in the odd piece of magic in his TV shows. Yet the wide number of people believe a lot of what he does he does entirely through either 100% real psychological methods.

I don't think it's possible to get anyone to truly believe that you are psychic. If they did they would be too scared to come near you. If they thought you could truly pluck thoughts out of their minds why would anyone want to be around you? Everyone has their secrets, after all. So if you believe people really, REALLY think you can read their mind, ask yourself why they still find themselves able to be comfortable in your presence.

Actually a small percentage of the audience do believe it. Not many. Just a few.
In California the percentage jumps dramatically.

mark lewis wrote:In California the percentage jumps dramatically.

Especially in the south.

I do not think that anyone has been devaluing any of the advice, but trying to question the attempt at hegemonic discourse. The flavour of the thread has been about mutiple routes to quality performance and the quality of the performance itself.

On quality, the options appear to be:

All magic and no mentalism
All mentalism and no magic
A mixture of some kind
No magic or mentalism but psychic performances only

On the routes:

Start as a magician and stay a magician
Start as a magician and then graduate to mentalism
Start as a mentalist and stay as a mentalist
Start as a psychic performer and stay as a pyschic peformer
Start as a psychic performer and discover that some magic techniques are good utilties for accessing key information

I have been watching the new Millard Longman DVD on billet techniques in which he gives his own history as a 'shut eye' reader who uses Tarot cards and other oracles to do readings and then in his 30s got into card magic and other magic techniques, and then discovered mentalism, which he sees as using magic techniques to fake what he had been doing anyway. His key insight is that following Annemann, Corinda, Cassidy, Busch, et al, he was able to see how billets provide the perfect utilty for accessing key information that then can used to give a better reading. It seems to me this story fits well with the 'sticky' above on how to become a mentalist.

Here is someone whose route started in psychic entertainment moved towards magic and mentalism and grew stronger as a result. Many on this forum start in magic and move toward mentalism and will develop no doubt stronger performances as a result.

So, perhaps this is a small plea for plurality in approaches through which new and exciting developments will inevitably occur.

DrTodd wrote:
Here is someone whose route started in psychic entertainment moved towards magic and mentalism and grew stronger as a result. Many on this forum start in magic and move toward mentalism and will develop no doubt stronger performances as a result.

So, perhaps this is a small plea for plurality in approaches through which new and exciting developments will inevitably occur.

Wonderful post DrTodd. I started out as a "straight" tarot reader some 20 years ago before getting into magic & mentalism. Combining straight readings, cold readings, magic and mentalism has brought me a level of success and satisfaction that I could never have hoped for working simply as a reader. I would also suggest that adding readings and mentalism to pure magic brings about a stronger experience for the specs.

Craig, there's no need to get uppity really...its all just a difference of opinion...

just cos we've not been doing it for 30 years, doesnt mean we arent allowed a different opinion...

the thing that bugs me is this, if you take Corinda and Annemann as the example...there's at least one chapter/step in them devoted to the use of cards...

if its good enough for them, its good enough for me...

The modern day authors that is in my opinion are equally as good - Kenton's stuff contains card work too...as does Ted Lesleys, as does many others...

And on the subject of Annemann, the title is practical mental magic, yet he's classed as a mentalist...

No wonder us amateurs are so confused eh you pro's can't make up your mind! That's who we learn from afterall, we buy the bible of mentalism, devour each step, and incorporate some card work...then wallop! someone else comes along and tells us we're wrong...

isn't it just personal choice?

i've always taken it that on here, we are supposed to support each other, offer ideas and suggestions...not come down on us like a ton of bricks just cos some of us disagree or have our own ideas...

anyway, this'll probably be locked sometime soon...

if you can't respect mine or others opinions or choices, however much you disagree with them, then i can't really take your advices as seriously as i used to (which have been very useful on several occasions, of which i am grateful for them)... so as you sometimes say "do what thou whilt..."

Craig Browning wrote:It's nice to know I don't know my ass from a hole in a ground...

Craig, I don't think anyone is suggesting you are wrong in your deep and meaningful explanations.

However, can't you accept for once that perhaps you're not entirely right either?

I find two solid dictionary definitions for 'mentalist'...

1. Parapsychological activities, such as telepathy and mind reading.
2. The belief that some mental phenomena cannot be explained by physical laws.

and several for 'magician'

1. A sorcerer; a wizard.
2. One who performs magic for entertainment or diversion.
3. One whose formidable skill or art seems to be magical

Nobody is trying to 'redefine' either term. However, from an ENTERTAINMENT point of view, rather than a pure spiritual belief stance, a 'mentalist' is an entertainer WHO MAY employ the same techniques as a MAGICIAN to achieve the ILLUSION that parapsychological events and phenomena are possible.

Illusion—a little word which cropped up in that sentence. Illusion...

So, to APPEAR to be a MENTALIST, are you denying you are creating an ILLUSION?

So... we have a crossover—the final goal of a Magician and a Mentalist is the same—to use skills and techniques (albeit different) to achieve an illusion.

Personally, I don't have anywhere NEAR the experience you have (who on Earth does?), but I like to consider that I dabble in both Magic and Mentalism. I like to entertain. It's all an illusion—whether I'm pulling sponge balls from thin air or telling people exactly what was written on the billet we just set fire to.

Yeah, OK... I admit that to acquire the skills needed to be a GOOD Mentalist you need to invest tons of time and energy. But that's true for magician's too.

We're at a point in time where Magic has had a huge re-birth, and so has Mentalism. It's all been dragged to the mainstream, and we're seeing new talents emerge all the time. And many of the new eclectic creators and performers DO NOT specialise or focus on one area alone...

I am sure you must think we're all ignorant, arrogant and positively clueless (judging by your remarks) but we're not at all. We're just embracing the evolution and interleave of two genres.

Which, after all, we are doing through public demand.

Your own dedication and thoughts on the pure 'Mentalism' art is admirable, and rightly so. You're very protective.

Unfortunately, like many things in this day and age, the word 'Mentalism' is seen very differently by many people. It's just another type of magic. But we all respect you for keeping the TRUE meaning of the word alive.

Shall we all agree to disagree then, that we're all wrong, and perhaps the term for a MAGICIAN who performs acts which are seemingly PARAPSYCHOLOGICAL such as MIND READING or TELEKENIS as a new word?

Perhaps, Magicialist...
...or Mentalician.

Would that make you feel better?

We are all individuals with different styles and different creative angles and channels. Does it matter that perhaps we all have different opinions?

We all of us respect your own opinions, as you've contributed greatly to the forum, and your posts are always weighted with great wisdom and understanding.

Perhaps now, it's time you gave the rest of us a little respect and realise that sometimes it's better to accept change and be broader minded rather than try to enforce your own views and beliefs.

I read that you once said that you loathed any kind of predator. Well, I am sorry to say that the way you hide in the sidelines and POUNCE when anyone mentions anything which you believe is wrong—and then try to rip their own beliefs to shreds—falls almost into that bracket.

bravo - i quite like mentalician...

i would quite like to out into the streets and ask people what they think the word mentalist means...

they use it in the tabloid press over here as someone whose a little crazy or over the top...never once had it ever been used to describe anyone magickal...

i suppose it boils down to labels as well doesnt it, it often means more to the individual that wears it than anyone else...

i do love the thinking behind "what we define, we create.." so whatever each of us defines ourselves as, exists within that frame of performance...

led zep were more than a rock band, more than a blues band...folk, funk and lots of other influences...im sure the occult figured in some respect too given the symbols they each used, and Page buying Crowley's castle and grounds...and that's what made them so great...they were far more than what was "expected" and "what was done before them"....

billy cobham was a legendary jazz drummer, but if you listen to Spectrum and the track Stratus, that encompasses just about everything within 8 minutes or so...in a hybrid...