talkmagic.co.uk

This past week I've been called about everthing but a whiteman by members of another noted UK board; a forum I'd helped build along with a couple of other old timers, all three of us being challenged and chased off more than once by key members of said group. But I want to know your opinion about some things.

I know that I tend to talk to people as if I were the wise and learned old sage but some take this as arrogance or as if I am demeaning to others. I don't know if it's their being overly sensitive or if I am being rude without meaning so (and yes, there are times I do mean so... forgive me!) but in general, do I turn you guys off or do you feel slighted by me as if I place myself on a higher pedestal for the wrong reasons?

Secondly, do you think someone that's been around a bit who has a wide range of experience, has the right to defend both, his position in the craft as well as that side of the craft he holds closest to him; his field of specialty?

I also need to understand how on earth I am supposed to explain things to others without using my credentials or past experiences... it would appear that is seen as a bit taboo by certain folks. I honestly do not know how to get around it in that no one, until I started having problems with this forum about two years ago or so, made it an issue.

When I was growing up in magic most of my influences were rough old codgers that had been around the block more than a couple of times; People like Vernon, thought nothing about yelling at someone or cracking their knuckles with his wand when you did something wrong; Peter Pit and Max Maven would more than share their mind with you when you were screwing up (in their opinion), etc. These are the types of character who were my primary influences that were specifically tied to magic; perfectionists! It is their philosophies and ideas that I tend to transmit most, along side their demeanor, when I respond to things. Secondly, I admit that I am heavily influenced by having been around far too many magicians over the years and heard far too much back of the room chit chat by the observing pros when it comes to the antics and common habits of the typical enthusiast e.g. I very much have a kind of disgust built in when it comes to the short comings and blindness (denial) of the typical magician and yes, I know that comes through at times due to my bitterness around the fact that so many have suddenly jumped into an aspect of this industry that I've worked in and studied for decades, building an image, etc. only to face an invasion in the past few years, of people who aren't willing to invest even an ounce of the energy I've placed into the same.

The other confession I have...a short coming I know of, is not understanding this drive to be a jack of all trades when that goes so far against the rules I was taught from 1969 well through the 1990s and yet, people want to defend this "right" with harsh tenacity and venom even though they are up set and confounded in not being able to get steady work and not realizing why.

The people on this other site make me sound sub-human and vile. Some claiming that they want to barf whenever they see anything I write, etc. (which I'm certain is just their 12 year old school girl expressing herself from within) but it really concerns me. It's not who I am or what I intend the majority of the time and I really don't think that's what I project.

I'm not opening the flood gates for some kind of roast, but I really do want to see if or where any substance to these proclamations exist.

Craig.

I am going to be tactless, honest and above all open...

You ARE outwardly arrogant, pig headed, egotistic and what some may call an 'azz'.

However, quite paradoxically you are also the antidote to 'know-it-all' soapboxers. Nobody who professes to 'know it all' can deny a humbled feeling when faced with someone who has LIVED the life they purport—someone who has WALKED THE WALK OF WHICH THEY TALK.

Personally, I respect the fact that you not only take time to post here, but you give your knowledge freely and without prejudice. Even when faced with opposition, abuse and hostility, you continually and consistently deliver wisdom to the ungrateful grunts we appear to be.

You deserve more. And please never feel anything but flattery from the jealous, narrow-minded charlatans who are quick to shoot you down.

Frankly, I find your debates enlightening, your musings and prose invaluable, and your thick-skin commendable.

Sincerely,
a Craig supporter.

I think sometimes we could all do with just stepping back and looking at our words through the eyes of others.

I've gradually formed an impression of the grizzled old mentalist at the bar after a show, hunched over a drink, lamenting to the barkeep about how these crazy kids have taken over with their shallow "everything now" ways, and wondering where it will all end.

Mr Browining

Sometimes with Epiracne comes a know-it-all tone, I have an uncle you do something wrong he is there with the know-it-all tone. I don’t see this as patronising in a sense I see it has the voice of experience speaking through the cloud created by some one new on the scene.

Although I am happy being just a magician who doses private events and restaurants and the likes . And you had done more in magic then most us will ever achive I belive that some people are slightly jealous of your achievements and the people you have met along the way. Sometimes it will seem to other people you are saying to them I have been there done that.

Before I read up on you round the internet I thought you was a bit of a smart a** . but after reading what you have done etc , I can see why you are proud of achievements. I don’t wish to make this post sound like I am hero worshiping you and I don’t think that’s what you want either.

But sometimes your post do tend to come across as a bit of a well I know more then you ever will. Type thing. No doubting you do know more then most.

I have always seen your input to talk magic as bonus its not easy for some one to find someone with your experience to talk to. And sometimes reading your posts I say to my self get of your high horse and give a kid a brake will you.

But on the whole I enjoy your post and a lot of solid advice in them.

The jack of all trades thing that you are strongly against I can see your point but on the whole I don’t think this is the most harmful thing for magic. I do belive if you want to be good at something you should specilise in one subject but those who don’t it is up to them at the end of the day.

Dear Craig:

Since I have joined this forum, I felt that I have learned a tremendous amount of new and exciting stuff covering a wide range of things, and in return I hope my posts have helped contribute to the debates, ideas, discussions, effects, presentations, etc.

Many of our members have different styles of communication and draw on a variety of past experiences in the fields of magic, mentalism, and 'shut eye' reading, as well as many other interesting pursuits such as music, academia, statistics, science, religion, philosophy among many others.

Our medium (pun intended) is a difficult one. It is often very difficult to communicate what we really want to say through text alone. And it is here that in many ways your attempts to pass on your wisdom have been misinterpreted, or your words have caused offence.

The different styles of communication and the reactions that ensue are analagous to many different conductors I have had in music over the years. I have had very dirigiste conductors, funny ones, lazy ones, and passionate ones who in their own way were committed to getting the very best performance out of all of us. Tough but fair teachers are usually the best for encouraging people to do their best.

I have read your posts on on-visions and some other mentalism sites, as well as most of the posts on here. I have also bought some of your products. You offer very challenging and constructive criticisim, sage advice on slowing down and developing a persona that makes sense, fantastic references to learn more on a particular topic (e.g. billet work, which I have found fascinating), as well as other exceedingly useful stuff. I would probably describe you as a tough but fair teacher and you have had a net postive influence on my development as a magician after 32 years of studying and performing magic (soon to be 33 ).

Most of the reactions to your posts here are favourable, while some of the debates descend into tautology and/or get locked. That is the nature of the beast.

In my academic work I am a firm defender of freedom of speech, and this site has developed an organic and quite remakable norm of good quality discussion, deliberative democracy, and consensus building that is unusual for an otherwise open forum.

Keep up the good posts, TalkMagic would not be same without them!

I have had 2 mentors in my life both of whom would think nothing about yelling at me, throwing stuff at me and generally expecting nothing but the best from me. personally i would not have had it any other way i think that to become the best (which is what i aspire to) you need to have that harsh mentor forcing it out of you. i think that too many "magicians" are too quick to go for the easy option, not put in the time not put in the energy perform one DL for their friends and call themselves a magican.

yes craig you can be brash and oppinionated but i think that after the current influx of idiots on this forum (i point to the "is mentalism just a lie" post) perhaps it is a welcome input, to get rid of the know-it-all kids that think they can do it the easy way. i think that if i have my own student in a few decades time i'll treat him with the same hard stick attitude that i was given to make him the best magician he can be.

Frankly i would be delighted to have you as a mentor if your as passionate in your teachings as you are on this forum

Craig, just four words:

Don't
Change
A
Thing

OK a few more - as has been said above TM and it's members have received a very great deal of your knowledge and advice and I suspect that this is still only a small portion of what you know.

Yes, some people can take the wrong impression but they also do that over far less complex posts and there will always be someone throwing a rattle or two out of the pram or having a temper tantrum because we didn't all say nice things about a poor idea. I would far rather get an honest and objective, possibly blisteringly critical, response from you because I know it won’t be personal and will be intended to advise and improve things. There may also be a difference in cultures where US speak gives a different impression when translated into anything else, as has been said above, in that case just stepping back and taking in the spirit of the reply rather than the exact wording is the way to go. One person's smart arsed know it all can be someone else's assertive and knowledgeable; harsh can also be constructively critical and so on. We've noted many times here that Magicians' egos are a big problem at times if they're on the receiving and of some less than praiseworthy comments, usually amongst some of the professionals but also amongst some amateurs. Perhaps it's just one part of being magical that we have to take into account and deal with?

Anyway, if other boards and places can't understand any of this that then that's their loss. Sod 'em !

Since you ask...the tone of many of your posts often puts my back up, even when I can't disagree with what you're saying, and I know I'm not alone. It's no coincidence that so many of the threads you're involved in descend into arguments. I can be somewhat...intemperate myself sometimes but I think on reflection I acknowledge this and apologise where necessary. Your reaction to a dissenting voice is usually to take on an even more lecturing tone and remind everyone (yet again) how many years experience you have, as if that means that the only worthy opinion around here is yours.

It is possible to share wisdom without being arrogant.

I think the problem with an authoritative tone is that it can be seen to stand in the way of excitement and enthusiasm. A lot of newcomers and hobbyists get swept away with an idea and want to hit the ground running and be everything all at once right now. I fall into that trap all too often in all aspects of my life and I admit it.

It's not a realistic way of thinking, but very often it's just plain frustrating to be told that it's unrealistic.

I don't go as far as to call myself an expert in anything - I haven't been on this planet long enough to claim any crown - but I am often called upon to advise newcomers to the digital video field. And there are similarities there. People think that buying the biggest, best and most expensive cameras and video editing systems will immediately qualify them as 'professionals' or that the quality of hardware and software alone will yield good video productions regardless of their level of skill and experience. My reaction when these people ask for buying advice is that they should buy nothing other than a pen and paper. They should sit down and work out what they want to do, how they plan to do it, and who they plan to do it for. Once that's in place, buy only the tools to do those specific jobs and learn to use them well. If revenue comes in from the back of it, look at expanding with some of the flashier gear. It's great advice, but not the advice that people want to hear - and advice that I often fail to follow myself.

Long winded story short... I think the voice of measured reason and experience is often seen as a hindrance rather than a help by those who are in too much of a hurry to get anywhere at all.

I'll keep it short and sweet

I dont always agree with your opinions that are expressed on here but they are certinaly always well thought out and well argued and I enjoy reading immensely.

And when did being opinionated become such a crime. If more people had passion and the "quorn" to express them in a forthright way then I reckon it would only make forums such as this even better.
Anyone throwing thier toys out of the pram and resorting to insults in any discussion has clearly lost the argument and needs maybe to move out of their parents basement and join the grown up world.

As always I look forward to hearing any opinion expressed as long as it's well thought out and if it isnt then the right is still there to express it but luckily it will be shot down in flames by people who do know what they are on about.
I say carry on Mr. Browning, carry on Talkmagic and Long live caffeine.

this forum unlike a few i could mention is populated by members that fall into two camps.
1) old school magicians that belive that taking 20 years to perfect one trick is justified and expected.
2) new school magicians who want to learn it all as quickly as possible and get out there with the minimunm of practise and make a name for themselves and be the nxt blaine.

** thanxs to david r for pointing out my mistake, age should not be considered a factor when judging wether your old or new school and of cause there are hundreds of sub-catergories but i just wished to point out that generaly you will fall into one of the two camps and that a third or middle option will be needed for both factions to survive as each has there own merits and both should survive if magic is to survive.**


fortunatly we have good mods most of which are of the old school but reconise that to impart wisdom to people that live there lives at 90 miles an hour they may have to climb abord a jet to keep up with them rather than stick a spanner in there engine to slow them down.

you my friend are old school and carry a whole toolbox of spanners this in itself is not a bad thing I'm old school myself but to teach the generation today we need to find a way to keep there attention wile promoting a good attitude to practise, its hard and many times we need to swallow our venum and try a more tackfull aproach.
we have to remember that today long strived for skills are not respected or reveared anymore, they still need to be promoted but subtly and with spin.

the other froums i suspect are primarily populated with new school who see yaers of practise as too slow for them and therefore attack you for not giving them what they wan't in the condesed form they need, its not there fault there made that way.
old school and new school will need to find a midle ground to agree on or be ever divided for magic as we all know it to survive.

so do you personaly need to change, h*ell no but you may have to modify your delivery a bit to find that middle ground.

I also need to understand how on earth I am supposed to explain things to others without using my credentials or past experiences... it would appear that is seen as a bit taboo by certain folks. I honestly do not know how to get around it in that no one, until I started having problems with this forum about two years ago or so, made it an issue.

One of the thing central to rational debate is that what matters is "what you say" and not "who you are". In religion it makes a big difference whether a statement is put forward by for example the pope or a fifteen year old in the local church choir. However, ideally, when presenting "ideas" what matter is really the content of what you say, not your credentials.

Of course, with all your experience you are of course free to use that to support the points you are making. Clearly having a lot of experience can help putting forward a much stronger and better argument.

It is a bit the same with performance. Who would argue agaist a fifteen year old genius who makes brilliant magic and is a born intertainer? The quality of his performance does not require that he has any credentials or many years past experience. The performance should ideallty - like a post put forward here at TM - be judged on its own merits e.g. quality of ideas and insights.

I cant be 'arzzed' to write overstretched lines to get across the following so here it is..

Sometimes you come across as arrogant but you know more than proabably anyone on this board so its justified.. I respect your posts, your time and I respect you.

Dont change.

I wouldn't say you're arrogant at all. You've forgotten more about magic than I or many others on this site are ever likely to know.

You alway take time to write thoughtful, informative and verrrry long posts.

I've read though quite a number of your posts and always found them to be very helpful.

You might come across a bit bullish at times, but that's you that's the way that you are and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Lady of Mystery wrote:You've forgotten more about magic than I or many others on this site are ever likely to

Harsh

I didnt know you had alzheimas Craig