talkmagic.co.uk

We could just add ''exposure'', ''explanation'' and ''tutorial'' to the tags on all our old videos that we have already uploaded

Seems a pretty good idea.

Also since Magic Video Depot allegedly has 45,000 members,(most of which probably have youtube accounts also) maybe we should suggest the idea to them?

So does this.

Sure does

Look out for the user: 'm4gic3xpos3d' on youtube as thats the account I will make random videos with.

Signed!

I heard a rumour anyway that you tube was being shut down due to copyrighted material? Something to do with some footballers wife tape and the court ruling that for everyday its up youtube are fined 60k and everytime they take it off it is posted back on within days by someone.
Probably a rumour but I've now heard this of two seperate people.

Can anyone shed light on this?

greedoniz wrote:Signed!

I heard a rumour anyway that you tube was being shut down due to copyrighted material? Something to do with some footballers wife tape and the court ruling that for everyday its up youtube are fined 60k and everytime they take it off it is posted back on within days by someone.
Probably a rumour but I've now heard this of two seperate people.

Can anyone shed light on this?

This is bit-tech's article on the matter, they explain it all:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/05 ... t_Youtube/

(Don't worry there's no offensive content on that page)

Don't google own youtube now though? They'll have enough money to last my life time I'm sure.

Hello all. I hope you are well.

Well now, I must say I have a dilemma. My dilemma revolves around the issue of exposure. On the one hand I understand your arguments. I take pains not to reveal how tricks are done. My standard response to "how do you do that?" is :"it's magic, innit". I understand that if the audience knows how a trick is done it diminishes the impact of the effect. It is demoralizing when someone tells you how you work a particular effect and it devalues the effort and practice we all put in (and I think that most people don't realize how much practice and dedication the art requires).

I understand that people invest time, energy and money in coming up with new effects that are then sold to other people, thus ensuring their livelihood. If that information is made freely availiable then they lose money. In many respects I agree with the arguments in favour of keeping secrets secret.

It seems to me that there are two separate and distinct issues regarding exposure: that of the effectiveness of the performance (censorship) and that of copyright (cash). I think it is important to bear this in mind. The reasons for keeping the workings of an effect secret are different depending on where one is coming from.

So.....

We live in the age of the internet. An age where I can communicate with somebody on the other side of the globe in an instant. Something unheard of in human history. I am sitting in my room in England and you are reading this in Africa (or where ever you are).

Ladies and gentlemen we need to face facts. The world has changed. The age where the DL, french drop, pass et al are known to a select few has gone and it will never come back. It doesn't matter how much we don't like it, it is true. The internet has irrevocably changed the nature of human communication.

One of the glorious things about the internet is that it transcends international boundaries. Governments are unable to censor the flow of information because of this fact, although the Chinese goverment is trying very hard to.

Perhaps this is a double edged sword. Much unpalatable information is availiable. One can learn how to build a bomb, watch religious extremist videos preaching terror, look at pornography, buy drugs etc. One can learn how to do magic.

Now, just so we're clear, I'm not suggesting that looking at how a magic trick is done is the same as looking at how dirty bombs are built, but judging from the extremity of the reactions on this site it could be.

I am not a fan of censorship. I do not like being told what I can or can't read, say or think. I value the internet because it prevents people from dictating what information they are allowed to view. The British government has no control over what an individual in Australia (for example) puts on the net and it has no control over what information I choose to look at. Likewise, we have no control over what secrets are revealed.

In my view, and I am aware that this is just my opinion and not an objective fact, attempting to prevent Wikipedia broadcasting magic secrets is no different from the Chinese government preventing Google from displaying pro democracy sites. I know that many of you will disagree with this but I would argue that the difference is one of degree rather than nature. It is a sliding scale of censorship, but it is still censorship. This is not something that I can partake in. For this reason I will not sign the petition.

You know, it's just occurred to me that my thinking on this matter is not entirely clear. Thus my dilemma: on the one hand I don't want a layperson to know how I perform the ambitious card routine, but on the other I feel that I cannot be a party to the restriction of information. If someone has an interest in magic then I will share information. I am largely self taught (it was only in the last six months that I cottoned on to Ellusionist and their range of DVDs) and it's been a hard slog. Now before any of you get on your high horses, before I reveal secrets I get people to show me a trick just so I know they are actually interested in the art.

So, there you go. I cannot, and will not sign the petition.

Before I sign off I want to make something clear. It is not my intention to upset or anger people and I had to think awhile before submitting this post. As a magician myself I know the importance of keeping one's methods secret.

I am aware of the fact that I have not mentioned intellectual property rights, but that is a separate issue which I may go into at a later date. I just felt I had to be honest even if that means you are not well disposed towards me. Rather that than censorship.

It has also occurred to me that this may not be the most appropriate thread in which to air these views, in which case you will just have to forgive me (and maybe tell me which of the forums would be appropriate!).

with metta
blackmahakala

Blackmahakala:

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that you are against censorship, but yet you won't divulge the secret of a trick unless the person shows you a trick first? Isn't that censoring them? What if they have an interest in magic, but don't know any tricks? Will you not show them how you do a trick? Or how about this quandary. You have a trick that you consider the creme de la creme. This is a trick that you have worked on for months or years to get the sleights and moves and patter down just right. Then you have other tricks that you consider "self-working" or that use basic sleights. If someone saw your show, then came back to meet with you, and showed the "21 card trick", and then asked you to show them how you did your tricks, are you saying that you would tell them how you did every trick, including your creme de la creme trick? Maybe you would, but the majority of people wouldn't. Maybe you'd show him the ambitious card routine, or show him a different working of the "21 card trick." But you wouldn't give away all your secrets.

Or how about this: What if you perform a card trick that uses gimmick cards (ID, Blizzard, etc.)? and that person comes back stage and asks you to explain how it's done. Would you show them and THEN give them your gimmick cards? I doubt it. Because you paid for the gimmicks. So how is that different than giving them the secret? You also paid for the secret.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you would divulge all of your secrets and give them all of your gimmicks.

The problem with YouTube isn't that it's revealing secrets to people who are interested in magic. It's revealing secrets to people. And badly, I might add. So then these people (who weren't taught correctly), post their vid on YouTube, and pretty soon, it just becomes a joke, and it cheapens magic.


I signed it.

Hello resdog (and everyone else),

I hope you are well.

I would like to thank you for your response to my post. You raise some interesting points and I thought I should take the time to address them.

First of all, I should point out that I have not yet looked at YouTube. Funnily enough, and I'm not entirely sure why this is, I'm not interested in seeing these exposure videos. Somehow it almost feels like cheating. I should probably reflect on this a little longer......

Anyway, back to the points you raised. I will try to deal with them in the order in which they occured in your post.

The word censor, according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, is defined as:
"Main Entry: 2 censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <censor the news>; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable <censor out indecent passages>".

The Cambridge University Press Online Dictionary says:
"censor
noun [C]
a person whose job is to read books, watch films, etc. in order to remove anything offensive from them, or who reads private letters, especially sent during war or from prison, to remove parts considered unsuitable"

Both dictionaries are in the top ten Google search for 'online dictionary'. Note that the first definition is a transitive verb, which applies to the act and the second a noun applying to the person who carries out the act. I include this information so that we are clear as to what we are talking about. I must confess I do have a bit of a thing for word definitions (which irritates my friends!) and like to be clear about these things.

If I choose not to reaveal the workings of a trick I am merely witholding information. It is when I try to prevent somebody else from revealing a secret that I then censor them. So, no, I do not feel I am contradicting myself.

If I meet someone who does not know any tricks but has an interest in magic then I would show them something basic, maybe using the keycard method. If they have some basic knowledge then I might show them overhand shuffle controls. I would get into a relationship with them and show them something appropriate to their level of skill as far as I am able to judge that. I do not have a problem with sharing information, in fact I would say that I consider it a duty to teach those who wish to learn.

I am not a professional magician. I believe that according to the classification system used by TalkMagic I would be classed as a skilled hobbyist. In fact, I will amend my profile so this is immediately apparent.

I do not kow the "21 card trick" at least not by that name. Actually, I have the vague stirrings of memory here. Does it involve three piles of seven cards? Anyway, the question is irrelevant and there is no need to answer it. If I was shown a trick I did not know, then yes I would probably show the other person a trick they did not know.

You are correct in your assumption that I would not give away all my secrets.

Regarding gimmicked decks and paying for things: I would be more inclined to give somebody a gimmicked deck rather than reveal its workings. I am a practicing Buddhist and generosity is considered the basic Buddhist act. Indeed, I would even go so far as to say it is the basic human act.

I have a question for you. How do you know that the people who view these videos on YouTube do not have a genuine interest in magic? If they do not have a genuine interest in the art of magic do you think they would really invest the intellectual energy in memorising how a trick is done?

Ok resdog, I feel I should respond to an aspect of your post that I found a little troubling. To be honest I'm not sure whether I should mention this but I would rather be straight with you than not. Again, I would like to reiterate that it is not my intention to cause you offence. It seemed to me that you were, perhaps unintentionally, taking your argument to extremes. Of course I would not reaveal all of my secrets. Of course I would not give all of my gimmicks away. I never suggested that I would. Neither did I suggest that anybody else should do the same, or even reveal any secret they did not want to. As I said I generally do not reveal how tricks are done. I learnt this lesson the hard way: when I first got into magic, out of naive enthusiasm, I told my closest friend how tricks were done and now I can't surprise him. One benefit of this is that I can get him to watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong, but when I realised that I could not show him a trick without him knowing how it was done it was very dispiriting. I learned that lesson well.

The issue for me is one of ethics. I believe it is unethical to censor another being, even if that makes my life more difficult. I may not like what they say, but I would rather let them say it than try to stop them.

I note that you are a resident of the United States. It is my understanding that it is written into your country's constitution that it's citizens enjoy the right to freedom of expression (I don't know the exact wording and in fact I may be completely wrong as I know nothing about American law). So assuming such a thing does exist can I ask how you square this up? How do you marry trying to censor someone who reveals the secrets of magic with their right to free speech?

To be honest, I think this is a very complex issue. More complex than it would first appear to be. I know people hold very strong views about exposure and I suppose I do as well. I don't like it. I don't like laypeople knowing how magic works. I suppose if it were clear cut then I would not have a dilemma. I'm not saying I think exposure is a good thing but I don't think it is the same thing as teaching those who wish to learn or the free exchange of information between practioners.

Anyway, I think I'm going to sign off now. I am happy to continue discussing this with people either in this thread or another if this is not the appropriate one.

Once again I would like to say I don't want to offend people, I'm just airing my views.

Best regards
blackmahakala

I signed the petition

hmmm. I wonder if similar issues were raised when the VCR was invented.

Mmm to me it's quite simple, if someone is a proven magician at whatever level then I have no problems sharing with them & likewise on this forum if I can see someone has posted 50 + posts then I have no probelms pm ing them any advice & maybe even revealing how something is done.

My problem with you tube is that anyone can go along & find out how its all done for nothing merely to satisfy their curiosity, where as I'm of the belief that if they want to find out how a certain effect is done they should buy a book/DVD etc.

Interesting discussion though.

Petition signed! (I'm off to search for this footballers wife video now )

blackmahakala,

Thanks for your response. I am not offended in the lease, and I thank you for the coherent, logical discussion. It's amazing how many times I get into a discussion that I have people just turn into personal attacks and name calling. Thank you for not doing that.

You make a great point on censorship, and I'll consent your point. Tally-ho, good man!

I have a question for you. How do you know that the people who view these videos on YouTube do not have a genuine interest in magic? If they do not have a genuine interest in the art of magic do you think they would really invest the intellectual energy in memorising how a trick is done?

I don't know if these people have a genuine interest in magic, I'm sure some do. The problem here is this: The people who are exposing the magic on YouTube are not that great at doing the effect in the first place, and they certainly aren't that great in explaining it. So now you get someone who "kind of" knows how to do the trick, showing someone else how to do the trick, and then they post the trick performace on YouTube (not done very well and it exposes it), someone sees that and figures out how it's done, then THEY post a video exposing the effect, etc. etc. etc. Here's the rub of magic. A LOT of the sleights/effects/moves are simple to learn, difficult to master. Anybody can be shown how to do a DL. It's not that hard. But it takes PRACTICE to make it look natural. It seems that people these days don't have the patience to practice these effects until they appear natural. That's my complaint. It cheapens the art of magic. The mystery disappears.

On to your question of ethics:
Freedom of speech is the concept of the inherent human right to voice one's opinion publicly without fear of censorship or punishment.

Exposing magic isn't expressing an opinion, it's weakening a magical history, so I see no problem "censoring" that.

What these people are doing is not ILLEGAL (else it would have been stopped), so we as a magic community must do what we can to stop it, as in the end, it affects us.

And for me, I don't have a problem with freedom of speech, but if you call my wife a b***ch, I'm going to do something about it, even though you have the right to call her that.

[quote]The issue for me is one of ethics. I believe it is unethical to censor another being, even if that makes my life more difficult. I may not like what they say, but I would rather let them say it than try to stop them. [quote]

What if they personally attack you? Or drag your name through the mud? Or your family? Would you just sit back and let them do that? Or would you try to stop them?

Thank you for airing your views. I think that people need to understand personally why they are signing a petition, rather than just being "Oh, it's a magic thing, OK." Your dialogue has hopefully helped others realize their stance. I know it has mine.

signed

Signed.

The way I see it, people can rationalize any action by using something called bullsh*t. People, in general, are very good at finding loopholes and excuses. Hell, I know I am. So trying to reason with exposure people is going to be a waste. Personally, I despise ****cafe.com- a video site, not a magic one- because it supports the exposureists. They pay 5 dollars per something thousand views a video gets. They pay the uploader, not the originator. b******s.

Digression aside, I think a reasonable solution would be to make bad explanations like mallusionist.

Make videos with ridiculous explanations, like mallusionist's explanation for the pass.

(http://mallusionist.com/cards/principles/pass.shtml)

Make similar explanations. Then INSIST that if the viewer wants to see more, to post a reply with video of them doing the sleight. Because of the insane nature of the instructions, the reply videos that look like they're following the instructions will stick out. Therefore posters will probably be from people who are genuinely interested in magic. PM them an invitation to TM and ta-da! Solved*.

*warning, might not work.