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I'm totally confused by the age issue. I'm not even sure what persona a mentalist is trying create.

Sure, if you're presenting an act based on academic knowledge, a degree in psychology is going to look good but if you're trying to be gifted, then what does it matter?

If people of any age are not good with their presentation of any effect, including mentalism, then they are going to look bad. I think it's true to say that mental effects need the greatest amount of "acting", since showmapship is not enough. I think it's talent not age that's important at this stage.

However, if my daughter or the kid from Sixth Sense were to come up and ask if you can remember the garden when your were young then took your hand and said "shall we walk through it", then it would be a stunning effect, particularly because of the age.

You could be right. I tend to equate age with experience but, of course, that isn't necessarily so, a lot of old fogeys are pig ignorant.

Maurice Fogel addressed the age thing quite well in the 13 Steps interview with him.

Better read what he said rather than rely on me but the upshot of it all was that although he thought age was an advantage in presenting mentalism you could still do a good job of it even if on the young side. To sum it up he said you should go ahead if you have the talent and age didn't matter to any serious extent if you were a showman that could present things well.

However as I said to make sure I am not quoting the great man wrongly it might be a very wise thing to read that interview which always impressed me. I like the bit where he said never to panic if people didn't volunteer to come on stage in a committee setting. I found this very useful when doing hypnosis shows.

I know of a group of magicians in SA who are starting to get in to the whole 'mentalism thing'. They sit around and debate whether spoon bending is actually mentalism because Mark Salem doesn't like it, but Osterlind does. They debate whether card effects have a place in mentalism, and whether or not billets are old fashioned etc. etc.
The problem is that none of them actually perform that much - let alone get paid for doing so - so it's easy to debate and have opinions, but they don't really know what works and what doesn't..

Marvell wrote:

DrTodd wrote:IS and for some, OUGHT to be

Now I'm confused again

If someone IS a mentalist then does that imply that they use mentalism exclusively in all of their effects and does that also mean that they do no effects which do not involve mentalism?

If that is the case, then Derren Brown, for instance, is not a mentalist since he performs tricks which have no mentalism angles.

It was meant as a joke! But I do think that one performs mentalism, which uses the theories and methods as outlined above, but I would not say one uses mentalism in the way that you imply. It is a category of performance. The thread on whether we mix magic and mentalism got locked, so let's keep this one going as the discussion is wonderful.

Mandrake wrote:You could be right. I tend to equate age with experience but, of course, that isn't necessarily so, a lot of old fogeys are pig ignorant.

Age and experience help in reacting to audiences and in guiding your performance. You have a well of referents, set pieces, idioms, and other tools at your disposal to help package your performance. Mandrake is right though, someone who is older but has no experience could be a disaster. Perhaps the correct word is 'wisdom', which is typically but not always acquired with age.

DrTodd wrote:But I do think that one performs mentalism, which uses the theories and methods as outlined above, but I would not say one uses mentalism in the way that you imply. It is a category of performance.

So, not wanting to get into a "mixing cards and mentalism" discussion, is a mind reader or sealed prediction a card trick or a mentalism trick, since you seem to imply they are mutually exclusive?

DrTodd wrote:Age and experience help in reacting to audiences and in guiding your performance. You have a well of referents, set pieces, idioms, and other tools at your disposal to help package your performance. Mandrake is right though, someone who is older but has no experience could be a disaster. Perhaps the correct word is 'wisdom', which is typically but not always acquired with age.

All true, and it's easy to assume that an old magician is a good one. The impication of others, however, is that one must be old to perform mentalism and it was not made clear whether or not that was because it requires a great deal of time to learn all the skills or that it requires a persona which is of a certain age.

Ah the great Markdini will answer your question. It is in fact both.

All depends on who is presenting the trick, one performer will perform it in a magical way the other will do it in a mentalist way. Same meat different gravy.

Marvell wrote:So, not wanting to get into a "mixing cards and mentalism" discussion, is a mind reader or sealed prediction a card trick or a mentalism trick, since you seem to imply they are mutually exclusive?

I'd say that it could be either, it all depends on how you present it. I think the way you perform something is what makes the difference between magic and mentalism. I can think of loads of magic tricks which could easily be presented as mentalism with the right settings and psychological mumbo jumbo.

Markdini wrote:Ah the great Markdini will answer your question. It is in fact both.

All depends on who is presenting the trick, one performer will perform it in a magical way the other will do it in a mentalist way. Same meat different gravy.

you beat me to it! Were you reading my mind?

See mentalisim! or was it a magic trick. Discuss.

Marvell wrote:

DrTodd wrote:But I do think that one performs mentalism, which uses the theories and methods as outlined above, but I would not say one uses mentalism in the way that you imply. It is a category of performance.

So, not wanting to get into a "mixing cards and mentalism" discussion, is a mind reader or sealed prediction a card trick or a mentalism trick, since you seem to imply they are mutually exclusive?

I did not say they were mutually exclusive. My definition leaves plenty of room for using cards or other standard equipment (which I do in my own performances).

For example, mentalists may variously use the following:

Sleights (e.g. billet switch)
Gimmicks (peek wallets, impression devices, remote reading systems, PK devices, marking systems)
Theory and Psychology: one-ahead, post-chronicity, multiple outs, verbal forces, ideometer response, filmer effect
Linguistic and rhetorical techniques: heresthetics, verbal misdirection, Forer effect
Esoteric oracles: numerology, Tarot, playing cards, runes, dice, I Ching, Ouija

Some of these are more in line with magical apparatus and some are from other disciplines and fields. What matters, and I think what the flavour of this thread is, is how your performance is gauged. I very much agree with Mark Lewis that mixing is fine. It simply depends on the overall package that you are trying to put together as a performer.

Labelling is not particularly helpful but you did ask for definitions.

The reason I asked for definitions was to try and make sense of other people's catagorisation and exclusion. However, it has opened up a can of worms, in which you'll find a prediction that it will open up a can of worms.

Marvell wrote:The reason I asked for definitions was to try and make sense of other people's catagorisation and exclusion. However, it has opened up a can of worms, in which you'll find a prediction that it will open up a can of worms.

Nice one, but I actually think the thread is pretty consistent.

If you want more of my thinking on this, see:

http://drtoddlandman.blogspot.com/2006/ ... alism.html