talkmagic.co.uk

Michael Jay wrote:However, should proof be furnished that this item is not authentic, then you'll have to (legally) take the item back and refund the entire purchase price. Nevertheless, you'll not be afoul of legalities, since you sold the item in "good faith."

Sorry to harp on about this (i've put my 2p on another thread regarding this sort of thing)...but if the book is sold by a private individual and not a company then the only law of relevance is the item has to match the description. The main legal point being caveat emptor (buyer beware / sold as seen). There would be no legal obligation to accept a return or provide a refund assuming you meet those two criteria.

In this instance a case could be proposed by the purchaser to suggest that the individual selling the item knew it was a fake signature and did not disclose this in the advert. This would be an issue that would need the courts attention.

Therefore the important thing with private sales is make sure you describe the item exactly as it is before it leaves your possession, otherwise you do have a legal responsibility, but only to take a return and provide a full refund, the item must match it's sales description.

Selling privately offers the buyer less protection, why do you think there a fair few (not all I hasten to add) unsrupulous characters that sell cars privately even though they have a trade business in the background...

Cheers.

lmw.

Tha just about sums it up under UK law but Magic Drummer is Canadian and Mike Jay is from the US so there may be some regional variances in the legal stance. Best advice is, as said above, that the Buyer Beware but the seller needs to be open and honest otherwise they may receive a painful 4am visit from the Buyer's 'representatives' who are all muscle and no brain .

PS Just to confuse the issue, how would a buyer know that the Certificate of Authenticity was authentic ?

It's very rare for autographers to give out certificates so I'm sure you'd be ok selling but don't really expect to get too much for it. Unless you get a collector or the item is partularly rare, signed books don't tend to go for a hell of a lot of money.

...the only law of relevance is the item has to match the description.

Precisely.

The description is "signed by Derren Brown."

If it is NOT signed by Derren Brown (forged) then you must take the book back and refund the purchase price. But, you will be in no legal troubles if you do so, because you believed, yourself, that it was Brown's signature - you sold the book "in good faith."

If, at this point, you refuse to take the book back and refund the price, then you are afowl of the law and it would be called "fraud." It is fraud because you claimed it was Brown's signature and it was not - it was a fraudulent claim on your part as the seller and the description ("signed by Derren Brown") is just as much a part of "as seen" as is any picture of the item.

You have described the object a specific way: "signed by Derren Brown." If it is forged, then it is NOT the item described, is it? And, that works in Canada, same as US, same as UK. Ask a lawyer.

Mike.

Addendum:

If you had a friend whose name was Derren Brown (not THE Derren Brown, but another guy with the name) and you had that friend sign the book, then yes, you could get away with selling that book "signed by Derren Brown" since you did not specify anything other than the fact that it was signed by Derren Brown.

Law can get strange, sometimes.

Even then, if the person that bought the book had a good lawyer (and yours wasn't quite so good), he could still nail you in court for intent, your intent being that stating it was signed by Derren Brown would cause a buyer to believe that it was signed by THE Derren Brown and you did this with malicious intent to commit a fraudulent act.

Law simply is not as clear cut as you are making it, above.

Mike.

Honesty is always the best policy.

Why don't you look on ebay, past and present, for signed Derren Brown material and compare signatures. Then you can at least feel like you're doing the right thing.

I've actually done that and it looks very legit because it is really big and loopy and fancy and looks similar to the ones on ebay....

Mandrake wrote:Tha just about sums it up under UK law but Magic Drummer is Canadian and Mike Jay is from the US so there may be some regional variances in the legal stance. Best advice is, as said above, that the Buyer Beware but the seller needs to be open and honest otherwise they may receive a painful 4am visit from the Buyer's 'representatives' who are all muscle and no brain .

Fair point about the helpers!

Also...me not paying attention (see that's what you get for concentrating on work instead of TM! ) to where people were from...sorry...there will undoubtedly be some variations between UK and US/Canadian law it is after all a whole other degree (hell there's differences in uk between english/Welsh (together as one I believe) and Scots/Irish!

Apologies to all again...

p.s. still useful info to all in the England/Wales...and re Mandrakes point on buyers representatives...I'd endeavour to keep your personal address just that...and also like Mandrake I've also found honesty is the best policy!

lmw and Mandrake wrote:honesty is the best policy

Except, of course, where we strongly infer that this deck of cards is quite ordinary, this box is empty, we have nothing hidden in the other hand, there are only 4 coins in use - or any of the hundreds of legitimate deceptions we employ !

Hang about, you've got an original signed copy of an excellent out of print magic book by one of our leading current practitioners, and you want to sell it?

I'm with Marvell, hang on to the thing. Hell, I'll even buy it off you.

just curious, and my views MAY be wrong, but if he sells the book, is he not selling the knowledge that the book contains? whats to stop him (im sure your a nice enough guy, Drummer) from reading the book, then selling it on, im SURE i have read somewhere on this forum, that this is frowned upon, and is classed as STEALING magic, as PE contains instructions and meathods for some really good tricks...

YET, there have been many more senior TM members, than myself, replying on this thread, but a word on this subject has not been mentioned... IS it a fact that Drummer could easily make a large profit, then order a new copy for him self, with the winnings? i do believe our methods of buying/selling second hand lit' should be set in stone...

He's not actually trying to sell it on TM so the problem doesn't arise - fortunately!

i see, but the fact that he is intentionally WILLING (not definately) to sell it for a profit, and we are advising him how to go about it?! personally, if we practice what we preach, this thread should have had ONE reply


'do not sell it, your breaking a moral code'

As I understand things, he was asking about the Certificate of Authenticity originally and TM policies would only apply to actual trading here.