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by **Carl Buck** » Mar 21st, '07, 12:24

If I can make a recommendation I would say buy Roberto Giobbi's card college.

I used that when I first got into cards and it is a fantastic, easy to follow and concise course ( there are 5 books IIRC, although I now believe there is 1 book called card college light? )

Hope this helps.

by **majs** » Mar 21st, '07, 14:27

Thanks for all your suggestions. It is just comforting to know that I'm not the only one that finds the hindu shuffle easier than doing the injog with the overhand shuffle.

I have been into magic off and on. I got back to it after a few years of not doing it at all. I guess that is good 'cause now I can retrain my hands to the correct forms and movement.

by **Johnny Wizz** » Mar 21st, '07, 14:30

I have never made a point of learning fancy card manipulation and my ovrehand shuffle at the best of times is a bit untidy. So a jog never shows. I quite regularly cut to the jog rather than catch a break and that has necer drawn comments. I usuall cut a second time using a false cut for good measure.

The advantage of the overhand injog control for me is that I can cut the card to the top by cutting below the jog or to second place by cutting above it.

I do use the Hindu Shffle especially if I am doing several tricks that require a control, but I have never got myself very proficient at it and always seem to cut too many cards first time.

by **beeno** » Mar 21st, '07, 14:59

If the specs are burning your hands too much in this situation, then I find it best to get them to return the card, then do the "slap the rest of the cards onto the cards in your hands and catch a b***k" move" (does it have a name?) Then do a pass, or whatever control you prefer.
The spectators never believe that any control is going on here, and the focus is immediately taken of the cards the moment you slap the rest onto the pack.
And to make my injog a little less noticeable, I pull the card back with my thumb as it lands, rather than moving my other hand so much. Looks much less dodgy.

by **Mr Toucan** » Mar 21st, '07, 14:59

I struggled with this as well until I saw Paul Gordon use it over an over again during a lecture he did. As everyone else has said his secret was that the shuffle was messy and not slick like the version that Daryl shows on his tapes. When magicians use complicated or overly slick movements the spectator naturally (in my opinion) feels that some form of manipulation has taken place. However, a rough and ready overhand looks like it is just that. The Hindu is so rarely seen outside of magic tricks that it looks unnatural and potentially suspicious.

I have a great little booklet by Paul Gordon called The Complete Jogshuffle which may be worth getting hold of. Try emailing Paul at www.paulgordon.net to see if it is still available anywhere.

James

by **Wills** » Mar 21st, '07, 15:14

I love the overhand shuffle and use it a lot, I also agree that it should be slightly messy. But I like to use all the shuffles as it can throw the spec of the scent more if I'm just casually using different shuffles and cuts each time.

As for the hindu shuffle being suspicious as not many know about it outside of magic. I like use it a few times normally first, say when I'm just shuffling cards before a trick. That way any suspicions or questions about it can be sorted before it comes into use.

by **majs** » Mar 21st, '07, 16:52

So you're doing an overhand shuffle and it's a bit messy you ask the spectator to says stop (which they did) now before they put the selected card back ... do you:

a) fix the currently mess up pile and then have the spec return the selected card

or

b) let the mess be and just have the spec place their card on top

or

c) something else please explain further.

Thanks.

by **Lady of Mystery** » Mar 21st, '07, 17:34

The hindu shuffle might look a bit dodgey if you're only using it for dodgey purposes. I always mix up my shuffles os they get used to seeing them and don't think anything about it.

by **greedoniz** » Mar 21st, '07, 17:43

The funny thing about the hindu shuffle being suspect is that I use to play poker after work and two of the guys were of indian subcontinent descent and the hindu shuffle was their regular shuffle.
When I first saw them do it I asked them where they saw it and it's just how they have always shuffled.
Not very helpful but interesting if you are as sad as I am

by **Wills** » Mar 21st, '07, 17:46

Generally you run a few cards of quite neatly first then wait for the stop. Or riffle through the pack until you hear stop then cut the pack there and have the spec place the card. Then begin your injog and the messiness after

My favourite is the spread and b***k in RRTCM were you spread the cards and the spec places the card anywhere in the spread. A FB can then be found as you square up the pack. This lets the spec feel in complete control but gets you that FB which can be worked whatever way you feel comfortable with.

Remember majs at the minute your looking directly the injog and know its there. A spec will not know what to look for, I find that so many people probably think that there is something far more complicated going on.

This reminds me of the time I first used my TT, I stood there thinking to myself how on earth are they not seeing this.

by **IAIN** » Mar 21st, '07, 17:51

greedoniz wrote:The funny thing about the hindu shuffle being suspect is that I use to play poker after work and two of the guys were of indian subcontinent descent and the hindu shuffle was their regular shuffle.
When I first saw them do it I asked them where they saw it and it's just how they have always shuffled.
Not very helpful but interesting if you are as sad as I am

that happens to me too, a guy i work with is from sierra leone, its the only shuffle he knows how to do...

my dad has some proper 8mm film of gali gali men stored away, from his navy travels in the 50s and 60s...doing the classic cup and balls and a card trick if i remember rightly...

by **majs** » Mar 21st, '07, 18:19

I'll look into that spread and break, looks like it's on volume 3 of the RRTCM DVD.

I'm forcing myself to go from beginning to end and not jump all over the place (I've been doing that before ... just learning the sleights I need to pull of a trick that interests me) so currently I'm on volume one.

Well that, and practicing my DL, and the pass ... I'm jumping again, huh? Oh well.

I have the same feeling about the TT.

Thanks again for the encouragements and comments.

by **DrTodd** » Mar 21st, '07, 20:02

jacko wrote:I think this thread sums up what I as a newcomer feel - and I guess is mirrored in all but the most personally confident. I have just finished RRTCM on my first read through. I was very good, making sure I understood each chapter before moving on. Some I found easier than others; the "Pass" still has me quite confused and my DL is neither convincing nor consistent. But I am only capable of making the cards move as they are supposed to, not yet capable of making that look smooth and natural.

My point (and yes there is one) is that at this stage of my learning process I have taken the step from spectator to initiate. As a spectator you watch magicians, either live or on the television and are 'amazed' by the effects they show you. As an initiate you learn that startling effects can be performed using a few 'simple' moves - there are effects at the end of Chapter 1 of RRTCM which can be performed "merely"(!) using overhand shuffle controls. Note: By 'simple' I mean easily explained and understood in a few pages of text, not easily learnt and perfected.

However your spectator brain does not just go away and after watching your first laughable attempts at an effect using your new found knowledge, your spectator brain convinces you that there must be more to it because there is no way that even the most naive four year old would be convinced that there was 'magic happening'.

This is good in one way as it means you know you are not yet ready to go public and therefore are not likely to ruin an effect by a cack-handed performance. However at some stage I will have to convince myself that I can dazzle and astound with the best of them (!) otherwise I am just learning a presentational skill for the hell of it rather than to perform. That confidence just feels a long way off and is quite daunting, but I guess it is all a matter of practise, practise and a bit more practise and can only advise others to do the same.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Richard

You are now at the stage of learning theory between conscious incompetence and conscious competence, which means you know what to do and how to do it, but you are still thinking very consciously about the moves and sleights. You are correct that practise is now key.

Indeed, and at some point you will move to the final stage of learning: unconscious competence, where the move comes naturally and look natural. Spend several hours a day working the deck and moves, and the muscle memory will kick in...

by **Wills** » Mar 23rd, '07, 10:55

Yeah that makes perfect sense Dr Todd, lately I have found myself sitting on the settee and watching TV. While doing so I have been placing the ace of clubs at the top of the deck. Then while watching the TV I will try and move the key card about the deck without looking or thinking about it too much.

Then I check the deck after a few shuffles and cuts to see if the key card is back to the top. It was quite scary the first time I did it, I thought to myself that this could never have worked.

By the way I just read what I wrote and the first sentence makes me look like I've got a very exciting life. I meant during my free time I'll watch TV

by **magicofthemind** » Mar 23rd, '07, 11:17

I've never liked the injog either. I use the Hindu Shuffle control sideways during an overhand shuffle. You can find it in RRTCM - it's called the Overhand Lift Shuffle.

Barry

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Hindu shuffle to the top vs injog with the overhand shuffle

Re: Change in perspective

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