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I personaly found the mechanic grip elmsley a whole load harder to perfect than the fingertip version, maybe it was just me, but I couldn't get my head around it, then a couple of months ago it suddenly clicked into place *shurgs* kinda wierd that, but hey I'm a wierd sorta person

Most people do seem to find that. When I worked out my version it felt horribly unnatural to start with but once I worked out where to put my fingers so they didn't mash into each other it wll fell together. I still use the finger tip version sometimes, particularly in the wild card routine I do as if I don't have a table I have to hold a packet of cards in my left hand whilst performing the count, that took some working out too!

as you're not going to impress anyone by "palming" a card or performing a "pinky break".

On the contrary.

Learning how to use these manouevres will produce astounding effects.

I can't imagine learning how to do the EC as a beginner. Personally, it would have probably lead me to self-frustration and knock my confidence with cards if I had tried to learn it straight off.

I'd say leave the EC until you have a basic awareness of cards and card magic, and also the way spectators see your magic.

K.I.S.S. !!!

(I think that's right, in this context?! By the way, what does CUPS mean? Laugh at me for not knowing if you want)

Compulsive Unnecessary Purchasing Syndrome.

In the context of your quote the sleights/utility moves themselves are unimpressive, it is the way that they are used that matters, which I think is what whoever originally posted that meant. I can't be bothered going back and checking though!

Zack wrote:
I can't imagine learning how to do the EC as a beginner. Personally, it would have probably lead me to self-frustration and knock my confidence with cards if I had tried to learn it straight off.

I'd say leave the EC until you have a basic awareness of cards and card magic, and also the way spectators see your magic.

Funnily enough, the EC was one of the very first things I learned to do with cards, after some basic overhand shuffle card controls. However, I entirely understand this viewpoint! I can't say that trying to learn the EC ever made me want to give up magic, but I did put it aside from time to time.

how long did it take all you guys to do it with confidence in front of people and not even think about it?
i have been going 3 months now

I can't really remember, I'm pretty sure that I practiced it just for it's own sake to start with and didn't have any applications for it at all. When I first found an effect that used it I would have been pretty good at doing it and more worried about other parts of the trick to think about the elmsley.

Card magic is an artform, and if you are serious, it should be studied as such.

I think it matters not in which order you learn these sleights and utilities, but what is important is that you first learn the concept of performance.

There is no real easy way to build up enough confidence to perform, but when displaying such difficult moves such as the Elmsley to the audience for the first time, you will feel obviously a little nervous that you're doing it right... and this is where my 'Learn the UnSleights First' reasoning comes into play....

Seige's 'Learn the UnSleights First' reasoning

What's an UnSleight? To me, it is how the 'move' SHOULD look if there are no sleights involved. Reverse-engineering the sleights is a fundamental way of understanding them.

So, how do we 'UnSleight' the Elmsley?

Well, break it down into what is actually going on... (in this case, four jokers)

1. You have four cards in your hand, all of which are Jokers
2. You count the cards one at a time, showing each joker in turn
3. You hold all four in your left hand, and take one card at a time with your right hand
4. Repeat this move until all cards are transferred from left hand to right hand

So, what's the difficulty in that?

Please, do this a few times. This is the move that the Elmsley emulates. That's all you're trying to show.

Performed fluidly, this is exactly how the EC should look.

Now, simply turn over the 3rd card from the top, and try to mimic what you've just done, but using an EC. It's easy!

This 'UnSleightly' approach works with many great sleights. For instance, I used to be scared of such moves as circulation shuffles etc. - where I felt that they were far too obvious. But, done with honesty and practice, this now looks exactly like an overhand shuffle - because I now try to 'Emulate' an overhand shuffle, rather than concentrate on the move itself.

Hope this helps?!?!?

That's pretty much what I did when working out my elmsley in the hands. It looks to all intents and purposes exactly like a normal four card count.

1. You have four cards in your hand, all of which are Jokers
2. You count the cards one at a time, showing each joker in turn
3. You hold all four in your left hand, and take one card at a time with your right hand
4. Repeat this move until all cards are transferred from left hand to right hand

Which is why the E.C. should been done deep in the hands not at the finger tips.

Seige is right the E.C. is all about being smooth. I always had a hard when doing the count the fourth card looked like an after thought and that I had only counted three. I can't remember how long it was between starting to learn and getting it. If it is any consellation 8 years later and it can still go wrong in performance.

It's true - a deep EC is far more attractive and natural, but a fingertip EC is sometimes more practical when handling hair-trigger gaffs.

A deep EC requires much more practice, and unlike many people believe, it does NOT require larger hands, which is something I always try to avoid mentioning,
Basically, if you can hold a dealer grip and move your thumb, then *theoretically* you can train yourself to do a deep EC.

Another word of advice with the deep version: if you have trouble 'separating' the cards, and you suffer from overly dry hands, try using very fresh, new cards and also consider using a moisturising handcream. This will pay dividends, as the fingertips need to be like rubber, and the cards need to glide smoothly.

my own humble pieces of advice on a deep Ec are ......
1)Pull, Push,Pull,Pull
2) if moisturiser doesnt work try and get hold of "Sortkwik"

Sortkwik - £4.50 for 77grammes from http://www.cards4magic.co.uk/acatalog/F ... owder.html - scroll down a bit to see the details - but no picture!

That has to be the most succinct explanation of an EC anywhere.

I followed the instructions and they worked perfectly. The answer to the EC is the 4P's. Brilliant!

I agree with the UnSleight principle (although i've never called it this before).

I always try and see how a move should look without the sleights, i used it most succesfully with the french drop...!