talkmagic.co.uk

I've avoided this thread for a few days in that the initial reply I wanted to give was rather scathing -- if you can't do it right, stop doing it!

But there exist a truth to it as well... NOT EVERYONE IS CUT OUT TO BE A SOLID MENTALIST.

Long before I accepted this role in my life I did Illusions while having numerous folks, including my own mentor, tell me that I would be better as a Mentalist and I was selling myself short doing the big illusions... but that was the thing to do then... just as mentalism is "the thing to do" now e.g. like then, we have a ton and a half of fools (just as I was in the day) trying to keep up with what is in vogue vs. finding their own footing and niche outside the proverbial box.

Finding where one fits and is most proficient is the key to success as well as "comfort" (for lack of a better term) as a showman when it comes to the variety Magic has to offer us. That means we need to find what fits us best today and for right now in that it will change -- as we age and mature so too our character must adapt and transmute. I'm watching several of my good chums go through mid-life anxiety in that they do not know how to gracefully shift from that 80's & 90's rock-star/sex star type image they had in our youth, to being guys in their 50s that just look very sad hitting on the young'ns or trying to present themselves as some kind of Adonis... then you have those that grew into a new and appropriate character, like White Hayden and even Maven has allowed himself to age in a more graceful manner although I credit Eugene's influence on him for a lot of this.

The point is, not everyone can affectively present mentalism and too, YOU as an individual aren't going to get the same reactions that I for an example, get from the exact same effect even if you attempt to mimic me word for word... the reason is, it's not your nature... what is natural to me and the affects I use that sustain my "myth" as it were, probably wont apply to a good 99.9% of you just as what Tomo does may not apply to others... I'm not saying his effects are applicable but rather his style of presentation and the kind of results he's seen may not be the same for you... you are two different people that will be perceived by the public in two completely different ways.... and unless you are a seasoned showman, just running out and "doing it" as some have advised, ain't exactly intelligent... it is in fact, one of the bad habits that's tainted the well, so to speak and given our world a boat load of half-wits that can barely spell the word MENTALIST... which brings me to the real point...

STUDY!

Too many of us are interested in feeding our ego when it comes to doing that next cool effect and as the end result, we don't stop to consider how it fits us, how it applies or lays in agreement to our character, our professed abilities or any of the finer points that allow us to make our Mentalism BELIEVABLE... and though I know that idea irritates many a cynic, the objective in mentalism is to INVOKE BELIEF not to suspend it! We rely on belief and the investment of self from our patrons. If that makes you nervous get the hell out of mentalism! Even Reverend Lewis will tell you that this is a job for con-artists and cads who have just enough integrity to make it an element of muse vs. charlatanism. You will even find Banachek talking about the power of inspired belief in what he does in a performance even when he denies the idea that what he is doing is all trickery in some form.

Learning the mechanics or theory behind an effect is just the start, it is not "how the trick works" and more importantly, it may not be how the affect is achieved via your own sense of style and presentation and personality. So experiment and if you don't find what fits... move on until you find that niche in magic that does fit who you are vs. following along with all the other duckies on parade doing what you've seen Derren, Ian, Criss, David, and all the others do on TV... dare to be different and maybe even YOUR SELF and you can't go wrong!

Abraxus once said to me in a pm "One person could see me and think I stink, then see you do the same thing and love you"

Also mentalism isnt a quick 1,2,3 trick done. You have to build on the concept of what you are doing. Ok take two effects. One I am going to divine a word the second i am going to stop my own pulse.

I would do them in that order for the reason being. One I have taken that word thought or number from there head using what ever methood thats not important now. And then I want something more visual putting a thought in to some ones head.

If you get my drift. You dont do Triumph and your 3 hour long Acr before your deal 21 cards in to rows trick now do you.

Plus you have to walk a fine line of being a showman but not over selling or under selling.

Blapsing_Beard wrote:indeed...I have another show next week, and am gonna try some things I havent even practiced on family or friends or...well...anyone

nothing like being thrown in at the deep end, eh?

Please don't.

Please practise.

Besides anything else it's not right to charge people to watch you rehearse is it? (Not to mention what it may do for the reputation of mentalism)

It's not the effect you need to practise (other than any mechanicals slights you may have to do) it's the presentation.

Mentalism is just about presentation.

It's about presenting yourself as a character.

You may well be the oldest looking 17 year old in the world (photo please) but even if you can pass yourself off as 24 (are you sure you aren't fooling yourself here?) it's still not credible that you have become a Jedi like master of all those things in a three year degree course and 2 years work experience is it?
You can only go down the psychological route if you are actually believable.

Where is your show? Is it close up or stage? Who are your audience? Do they know who you are and what you purport to be? How did your last show go? What material are you doing?.

I've not much time atm but I'll try to dig you out of the hole it sounds like you are about to fall into if I can.

Re: Mentalism for friends and family.
No you will struggle. If mentalism is about playing a character then the people who know you are not that character wont believe it will they?

Unless you fake being hit by lightning (or whatever) and your near death experience has left you with strange voices in your head.......telling you things.....things you shouldn't know........

its the way I show myself - present myself - I hold myself high, and people generally think im about 23/24 - hell - who am I to argue?

And when it comes to the no practicing bit...it is a bit of an exageration...I have practiced my patter, execution, e.t.c - but this effect is a case of dual reality...not something that I can conduct in front of a mirror

doug segal wrote:

Blapsing_Beard wrote:indeed...I have another show next week, and am gonna try some things I havent even practiced on family or friends or...well...anyone

nothing like being thrown in at the deep end, eh?

Please don't.

Please practise.

Besides anything else it's not right to charge people to watch you rehearse is it? (Not to mention what it may do for the reputation of mentalism)

It's not the effect you need to practise (other than any mechanicals slights you may have to do) it's the presentation.

Mentalism is just about presentation.

It's about presenting yourself as a character.

You may well be the oldest looking 17 year old in the world (photo please) but even if you can pass yourself off as 24 (are you sure you aren't fooling yourself here?) it's still not credible that you have become a Jedi like master of all those things in a three year degree course and 2 years work experience is it?
You can only go down the psychological route if you are actually believable.

Where is your show? Is it close up or stage? Who are your audience? Do they know who you are and what you purport to be? How did your last show go? What material are you doing?.

I've not much time atm but I'll try to dig you out of the hole it sounds like you are about to fall into if I can.

Re: Mentalism for friends and family.
No you will struggle. If mentalism is about playing a character then the people who know you are not that character wont believe it will they?

Unless you fake being hit by lightning (or whatever) and your near death experience has left you with strange voices in your head.......telling you things.....things you shouldn't know........

Doug... a belated welcome... I've been studying much of what you share and am glad to see someone with some obvious experience trying to help out... sadly, we do have many a youngster in these parts that simply aren't going to hear the gospel of experience. Thus must go out and get beat up a bit by reality before they wake up...if at all.

YOUTH is the biggest enemy of doing Mentalism; you are inexperienced with life, overly eager to "show off" vs. understanding how to create the more suspenseful and miraculous and in short, have not yet learned how to respect what it is you claim you do so as to be able to accomplish it in a way that will allow you to meet your goals and dreams. Those few (very, very few) younger people that do meet with success and acclaim have had mentors and guides THAT THEY LISTENED TO... there's at least a dozen folks on this board right now that have sent me PM notes both thanking me and apologizing to me for thinking I was an egocentric jackass on things that they had sense discovered to be valuable and true... it is as I said, some must let reality teach them before waking up but it is not a course carved in stone for anyone but the belligerent.

IF you honestly want to become a mentalist learn the art of enchantment... Kenton Knepper wrote a great treatise on this very topic some years back that I highly recommend. It matters not if you are reading minds or presenting a Billiard Ball act, when you can elicit true enchantment in the minds of your patrons you will have touched upon the brink of being a genuine wizard... when you can accomplish this state of mind in each and every performance you do, you are in deed a true Magician or "Master" as it were, of you side of the craft. This is the goal (or should be) thus, we need to put our ego to the side so it is not distracting us from creating that essence of expression through our craft.

Craig Browning wrote:

doug segal wrote:

Blapsing_Beard wrote:indeed...I have another show next week, and am gonna try some things I havent even practiced on family or friends or...well...anyone

nothing like being thrown in at the deep end, eh?

Please don't.

Please practise.

Besides anything else it's not right to charge people to watch you rehearse is it? (Not to mention what it may do for the reputation of mentalism)

It's not the effect you need to practise (other than any mechanicals slights you may have to do) it's the presentation.

Mentalism is just about presentation.

It's about presenting yourself as a character.

You may well be the oldest looking 17 year old in the world (photo please) but even if you can pass yourself off as 24 (are you sure you aren't fooling yourself here?) it's still not credible that you have become a Jedi like master of all those things in a three year degree course and 2 years work experience is it?
You can only go down the psychological route if you are actually believable.

Where is your show? Is it close up or stage? Who are your audience? Do they know who you are and what you purport to be? How did your last show go? What material are you doing?.

I've not much time atm but I'll try to dig you out of the hole it sounds like you are about to fall into if I can.

Re: Mentalism for friends and family.
No you will struggle. If mentalism is about playing a character then the people who know you are not that character wont believe it will they?

Unless you fake being hit by lightning (or whatever) and your near death experience has left you with strange voices in your head.......telling you things.....things you shouldn't know........

Doug... a belated welcome... I've been studying much of what you share and am glad to see someone with some obvious experience trying to help out... sadly, we do have many a youngster in these parts that simply aren't going to hear the gospel of experience. Thus must go out and get beat up a bit by reality before they wake up...if at all.

YOUTH is the biggest enemy of doing Mentalism; you are inexperienced with life, overly eager to "show off" vs. understanding how to create the more suspenseful and miraculous and in short, have not yet learned how to respect what it is you claim you do so as to be able to accomplish it in a way that will allow you to meet your goals and dreams. Those few (very, very few) younger people that do meet with success and acclaim have had mentors and guides THAT THEY LISTENED TO... there's at least a dozen folks on this board right now that have sent me PM notes both thanking me and apologizing to me for thinking I was an egocentric jackass on things that they had sense discovered to be valuable and true... it is as I said, some must let reality teach them before waking up but it is not a course carved in stone for anyone but the belligerent.

IF you honestly want to become a mentalist learn the art of enchantment... Kenton Knepper wrote a great treatise on this very topic some years back that I highly recommend. It matters not if you are reading minds or presenting a Billiard Ball act, when you can elicit true enchantment in the minds of your patrons you will have touched upon the brink of being a genuine wizard... when you can accomplish this state of mind in each and every performance you do, you are in deed a true Magician or "Master" as it were, of you side of the craft. This is the goal (or should be) thus, we need to put our ego to the side so it is not distracting us from creating that essence of expression through our craft.

agree with you totally - youth is a big enemy of mentalism - and hell - I am youth! I don;t deny it - but whether I start now, or when I am 35, I am going to make mistakes, am going to screw up, and am going to have to learn from them - why not do it now, when I am young, and learn from them now? At least then I can be a hell of a lot better than now when I am 35.

You can see a 20 year old magician who is better than a 35 year old magician - mainly because perhaps the 20 year old started at 16, whereas the 35 year old started at 34 - it is experience that matters, not age.

I know that the audience shall not see this when I am 17 - or even 24! But either way, I am going to have to swim in the deep end eventually - why not when I am young and can adapt? Rather than when I am older, and half my limbs are missing, making it a lot harder for me to tread water, let alone swim...

Close somtimes can never be good enugh at times. Pass the blame to them, thire powers just are not as stong as first thought.. Gets you a slap or a laugh...

TC All

I'm joining this thread someway in so here goes....

First off, you don't need to add comedy to your act, presentatin or whatever else you want to call it.

I think that the problem lies when you tell the audience exectly what you are going to do - such as read their mind. More often than not, this instantly becomes a challenge to prove that you can't, whether they believe you can or can't doesn't really matter.

I suggest that you change your presentation by removing these statements and present your effect through giving them instructions so that you lead them to think of of the effect that you're trying to create by themselves. That way, they don't know what exactly you are setting out to achieve but will be, or should be totally thrown by the result.

I'm joining this thread someway in so here goes....

Takes a Tenner off dat8962 come in..

I don't think I have used the words “Mind Reading" I would like to try something or shall we try this, to me it makes them a part of what is happening.

I never follow scrip of another mentalist or Magician, I look on how to get the end result then make my own story/ adaptation in order to get the end result. I recently got paint surprise and Refraction, for both I have made 2 presentations none are close to the actual instructions but the out come the same. I do it my way ( Sounds like a song) I think anyone who has written a book or make a DVD, would be proud that you adapted an idea unique to you.

Blapsing_Beard Younger you start more chance you have of making it, make the mistakes now the future can only hold good things.

TC All

Chris... you are both right and wrong... at 22 I did my first full Mentalism Only shows and realized I wasn't ready to do it right nor, to deal with the publics response so I put it off for nearly ten years so I could mature. That does not mean I didn't dabble in it and research and too, there is the fact that I have almost always been known for my more Macabre mode of things but, I waited until my presence... my look and character MATCHED who and what I was attempting to be.

There are effective ways for a young person to sell the idea of them being "gifted" but few in today's world have either the willingness to do what it takes, nor the patience. That's disheartening on my end in that I'm looking for someone younger than I who is responsible and willing to actually take on a role similar to what I'm suggesting here... the novice working in tandem with a "Master" as it were. For me and my needs it is not a matter of ego but rather necessity pertaining to my health but either way, it comes down to the ADVANTAGE a younger talent can gain when taking on the role of prodigy.

What you are not recognizing Chris, is that your self-willed attitude is rather selfish in that it brings with it the ring of a "I don't give a damn" attitude when it comes to how good or poor what you do may be and why Doug, myself and others have said some of the things we've stated... we do care in that your fowl ups along with those by the 101 other Ellusionist and Outlaw fans out there hosting this same attitude HURTS US! It makes our jobs tougher because people not only "have seen it before" but due to sloppy ham-sters (not the rodent, just big rats that think they are magicians/mentalists) many lay people have learned how "it's done"... in fact shoddy hobbyists (and a few pros I can think of) are responsible for more exposure than YouTube and Valentino combined.

I'm not saying you are bad... I've never seen you work, but I can say that your age and your attitude offer we old dogs a fairly good view from which to weigh things. As a rule of thumb youth is not your friend when doing Mentalism where it is when it comes to traditional magic. Psychologically speaking when it comes to the level of mystical-magical perception held onto by the non-magic enthusiast, they expect the miraculous from the older sage and see the younger as someone that tries too hard and is yet to be granted the status of Adept and in that, they don't get the same unspoken respect or "reverence" as it were.

Blapsing_Beard wrote:
You can see a 20 year old magician who is better than a 35 year old magician - mainly because perhaps the 20 year old started at 16, whereas the 35 year old started at 34 - it is experience that matters, not age.

Absolutely true. But we aren't talking about magicians we are talking about mentalists. With magicians the most important (clearly not only but most) thing is technical ablitiy. With mentalists it's presence & gravitas.

You can't learn gravitas you can only aquire it with age.

There is only one trick in mentalism......only one........ Really!...... Only one trick. If you can do this you are a mentalist if you can't you aren't, it best you are a magician doing some mind reading tricks at worst you are a disaster and are not doing anything to help the cause of mentalism. All you are doing is playing to your ego.
If you search yourself way down inside you may find that your general motivation in doing this is to "show off" and more specifically to be "like Derren Brown" (I mean no insult or slur by this by the way).

I know that the audience shall not see this when I am 17 - or even 24!

No thhay wont but you shouldn't be using a paying audince to practise on - At best that's theft.

But either way, I am going to have to swim in the deep end eventually - why not when I am young and can adapt? Rather than when I am older, and half my limbs are missing, making it a lot harder for me to tread water, let alone swim...

I'm older, half my limbs aren't missing and I think I can modestly claim that I am good at this and very successful at this. I didn't start performing mentalism *for money*
(i.e. not a charity gig for the local Round Table, hospital etc) until I was in my late twenties.

Now you can do one of two things here - Assume I don't know what I am talking about and ignore me or listen to me and others *who are actually out there doing it*

Why do I care if you have a disaster? Because it reflects on me. You can walk away and go back to whatever it is you do - This is my career!

What worrys me is that you haven't answered any of my questions about who where and what you are doing. Just about your age.

Why?

I'm away now *DOING THIS FOR A LIVING AND APPEARING ON INTERNATIONAL TV* (so clearly I don't have a scoobie what I'm talking about) for two weeks. Please answer the questions and let someone like Craig actually *help you* while I'm away.

My advice - Be a magicain at your age (please god don't try to be or bill yourself as what I am) do some "mental magic" in with your magic tricks and learn (as you yourself suggest) in a "safe way".
Then when you have aquired gravitas change your act.

I hope you listen - It will make you a better mentalist.

BTW My time is bloody expensive and I'm offering it to you for nowt - Can't for the life of me understand why you'd throw it back at me?

Doug

It's possible for a person with 'genuine' psychic powers to be of any age. Steve Shaw was very young when he fooled scientists with his metal bending.

Even then, I can't help but feel that mentalism is enhanced by having someone older and wiser (seeming). Even now, older people usually get more respect than teenagers.

With anything that is based on learned knowledge and experience, this requires someone a bit older. I was an extremely mature teenager with good acting skills, but I am not sure that I'd have been convincing as a master of psychology, body language and mind control techniques! As Doug said, it isn't really plausible to have mastered psychology to a level better than most professors of the subject, in five years.

So, when I was 18, my stage show included the Pom-Pom Stick, and a Jumbo Disappearing Card!

There are always exceptions to every rule. < Even that one.

Going back to the subject of performing mentalism to family members, if mentalism is about character, then yes, it's almost impossible to present this to people who know you.

However, the other night I was with some friends and I did a pseudo mind control/memory alteration effect. I then did 'Phil Plus', and 'Killer Élite Pro' and they were inventing their own psychological and suggestion reasons for why things were turning out that way.

During 'Phil Plus', one person named a card that someone else thought of. Her reaction to the same card being named was great. I said nothing, but smiled and nodded.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a fifteen year old to have learned how to do some of these things (look at Luke Jermay's early work), but it is perhaps very unlikely.

Going back to Mark's point on Dunninger, I think JD had thought about what mind reading would be like and acted accordingly. In his view, mind reading was instantaneous and clear. However, I prefer Max Maven's approach. If there is a process, which is interesting of itself, even if the effect goes wrong, the journey was entertaining.

Building up to the revelation will usually be more exciting and more dramatic than delivering the whole answer, without hesitation and without hitch, but there are exceptions to every rule.

As to near misses, I never put these in deliberately. I prefer to save my 'lives' for doing psychological forces, or, frankly, for mistakes. See, for example, the effect on Max Maven's 'Nothing', where the audience participant misreads something.

I once misremembered the last digit of a number someone had selected. I was using a (pseudo) psychological drawing-out process, so having got the first two digits correct, missing the last one by a little still made for a powerful effect. In fact, the slip arguably enhanced it, because it suggested I didn't actually know the answer.

With a playing card, perhaps the problem is that people perceive you as simply wrong, even if you have got the colour and suit right. Perhaps they think they are watching a magician?

As a rule of thumb youth is not your friend when doing Mentalism

There is always and exception to the rule.

I can say that your age and your attitude offer we old dogs a fairly good view from which to weigh things.

I am 49 and wish to be omitted from the above statement.

Chris do what you feel is right for you, for many years I was told I would never be good enough for any job hence that gave me a low self esteem and prevented me from moving on in life. No ONE on this board knows you why you want to do Mentalism or Magic, people have their own reasons my advice is stick by what you want to do, because one failed at an early age does not mean you will. We have more recourses now and a different way of learning. Via the internet and libraries we can now expand our knowledge quicker. Libraries now will order any book you want on magic or mentalism, books are no longer a tool for the privileged few who wish to study Magic or mentalism.

I would say to anyone Do not ignore experience of others just take from it what you want and that what you feel is useful. The secret of taking/listening to advice is that you dwell on the positives of the advice and let go of the negative parts of the advice. In my view do what your doing with pride and determination, like I have said before At least your trying and not hanging round on street corners in a Hoodie, or trying to use Psychology to cheat or lie to others.

TC All

thank you sir

and doug and craig - just before I reply to your comments, I would just like to say that I respect you both - and am taking your comments in - if I come across rude in any way, I apologise.

Right, in answer to some of your comments.

I don't perform to "boost my ego" per say - if I wanted to do that, I would do an ACR routine at school, or an ID for someone - which is a very impressive "trick". Nor do I want to "be like Derren Brown" - I think of Derren Brown as somebody who has achieved highly - as do I do with Paul Brook, Craig Browning, Jermay, Kenton, and even you, sir. But I don;t want to be "Derren Brown" - I don;t want people to say "he was like Derren Brown", I want people to refer to others as "like Chris Beard" - and be myself - not somebody else.

When it comes to practicing in front of a paying audience, I think you took that too literally - my fault probably, because I said it more "in jest" rather than "I have never practiced anything like this before ever" so to speak. The effect in question uses dual reality as the technique - I perform countless effects using dual reality. I meant that I havn't ever performed "this variation" of it. Effectively, think of it as rather than having somebody "think of a card" through dual reality, having them "think of a number" - at its most simple terms. The fact that I have never peformed the "think of a number" variation of dual reality, but have always used "think of a card" means that I have never practiced the "think of a number" variation - even though the general method and effect are the same - I'm not sure if that makes sense at all? If not I shall expand. Note also that neither of the above effects is the effects that I do, they were just simple examples. So I hope that that clears up the "theft" accusation.

When it comes to performing for money - they approached me, not the other way around. I did a few free performances, they were at one, and took my details. A month later, they asked me to perform paid, at a gig. This isn't my first gig, nor (hopefully) shall it be my last. If they saw what I am able to do (and if I am honest, they did not see my "best" stuff) asked for a price, and I quoted, and they accepted, surely I would be a fool to refuse? At the end of the day, if they enjoy my performance, and are left in awe, that is what matters? If I screw up totally, and ruin the reputation for all performers out there, then that is understandable - but personally, I feel I am ready, and have been performing for free for a couple of years - gaining experience in spectator management, rapport with the clients e.t.c - I am not saying I know everything, not by a long shot, but I know enough, for now.

In response to your questions, sir:

Where is your show? Henley - a place in Reading - nothing national - just a small job

Is it close up or stage? Close up

Who are your audience? 80 people, walk around - mainly in their mid-thirties, though there are the varying ages older, and younger

Do they know who you are and what you purport to be? They do indeed, sir. The person who hired me had seen me perform previously, for free

How did your last show go? My last paid job went very well, thanks for asking. They have even approached me again for another performance.

What material are you doing? It varies - depending on the place in question, I can do, and not do, certain things. After having a look at the venue for this job, some of my bigger effects I am obviously unable to do, due to it being walkaround. I'll vary from items using psychology, to sleight of hand (with a psychological twist), and different "make believe" NLP effects, even if the out come is certain.

I've not much time atm but I'll try to dig you out of the hole it sounds like you are about to fall into if I can

Thanks very much for that

Unless you fake being hit by lightning (or whatever) and your near death experience has left you with strange voices in your head.......telling you things.....things you shouldn't know........

That, sir, depends on your style of performing. I don;t claim to be psychic, nor do I believe I will (though I may be wrong). The presentation I give is a psychological stance - influence, NLP, e.t.c - even if I don;t use these methods for some effects, I tell them I do. I have found through my experience (which, I'll concede, may not be as much as you - but that doesn't make it any less relevent, due to it being my personal experience) that I have had better reactions through this stance, than through the "I'm psychic" angle. Maybe due to the fact that coming from somebody as young as I, it doesn't seem credible. Maybe because it just doesn;t suit me as a person - I don't know. But due to the fact that some of what I do is purely psychological, I guess I do like to give a basis of truth; this may rub off on to the audience, and allow them to sense that I am more at ease with this presentation. At the end of the day, I shall tell them that I haven't "mastered all people" e.t.c, but what I do is very hard to do, and may not work every time - because everybody is different. At the end of the day, I leave them looking for a way out, and the only exit that they can find, is that what I said is correct.



I hope that this has cleared a few things up - any other problems, post up, and I'll do my best.

I also hope that this has persuaded those of you that think those people of my age are unable to perform, actually...well...can. At the end of the day, experience does matter - and how am I going to get the experience if I don;t start when I can? To use the example of Derren Brown that you gave - he started, I believe, to do small shows at the age of 19/20 - 1/2 years above what I am now. Maybe, if I work hard, I may actually have talent?

Maybe, if I work hard, I may actually have talent?

You know what? I may just have something there! You sir, haven;t seen me perform. Yes you can base me on what performances that you have seen from others of my age, but the main problem there is simple - they aren't me. I, sir, am unique. You may think that I have a big ego - I don't. I know I am not the best - I know that you sir are better than me, as is Craig, and many others. But the fact is, I know that I have something to offer to the world of Mentalism. One day sir, I hope, you may be able to see that.