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It was a preemptive strike.

But, anyway, you're being a schmuck. I'm done trying to help you.

Good luck with all that you do, but hereafter you are a non-person to me.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:It was a preemptive strike.

But, anyway, you're being a schmuck. I'm done trying to help you.

Good luck with all that you do, but hereafter you are a non-person to me.

Mike.

Oh snap! I think I'll be getting Strong Magic some time in the near future as well... I assume it's the way to go?

Oh snap! I think I'll be getting Strong Magic some time in the near future as well... I assume it's the way to go?

I'd say so. It was the first definitive book that I found that contained practical methods that would help improve your magic . It will improve your magic tenfold. Try world of magic if you're thinking of getting it.[/quote]

I shall leave it to the young man to decide which manure he wishes to partake of. The manure of Mr Jay or the manure of myself who has worked for all sorts of audiences all over the world and who has earned his living for over 40 years doing magic.

Furthermore I haven't insulted the young man as others on this thread have. However it is entirely up to the young man himself whose advice he wishes to take.

But to continue with MY advice on these matters. Again, how do you acquire this silver tongue? It's not really difficult; it just takes some application. First of all, after thoroughly learning the mechanics of a trick, why not spend a half hour or so thinking about what to say for it? Use your brain, that's all you have to do. With a little imagination you should be able to come with something. In fact, you can get ideas for patter from almost anywere. Look around and see if there's some object in sight which will give you an idea for a patter line.

Perhaps you can pick up a book and browse through it in search of inspiration. Whatever you do try and make it interesting, even whimsical or perhaps a little nonsensical. You may prefer to make your tricks appear dark and mysterious. If so mould your patter accordingly, but don't try and be something you're not. If you're not really suited to being dark and mysterious then don't be. If you're not naturally a comedian, there's no need to tell jokes with your tricks. Be natural, be yourself but be entertaining.

Now of course this may create a conficlt because you may not naturally be an entertaining personality. On one hand I am stating that you should be yourself and on the other hand I'm saying you should be entertaining. So you may well ask, "How am I supposed to be myself and be amusing at the same time? My conversation is as dull as dishwater, I don't like speaking in publci, I am naturally a quiet shy person, so how am I supposed to transform to a product of Barnum and Bailey combined with shades of the Ringmaster to the Greatest Show on Earth?"

The answer will be in my next post. I would advise our student that the above quote about being as "dull as dishwater" and "quiet shy person" was not directed specifically to him personally but should be regarded as a mere rhetorical example.

I will proceed with more information later.

I wasn't aware that Mr. Jay gave any advice... Thank you for yours, I'm listening intently.

Now that I know I have your attention I shall continue.

I asked in my previous post how you transform from perhaps a quiet introverted person to a charismatic showman. Actually you don't. You will find that the more you perform magic the more interesting your personality will become anyway. You don't have to change overnight to a reincarnation of Dante, Blackstone, Houdini or any other great magician of the past. As time goes by your personality will become more interesting anyway. However you do have to help it along a tiny bit. For example, if you should make an aumsing remark extemporaneously, try and remember it for future occasions. You will find as time goes by you will accumulate a stock of these remarks and you can weave them into your performances. If you think you are as dull as diswater and you lack confidence don't worry! Magic is an incredible confidence builder. Every time you hear gasps of astonishmetnt it will do wonders for your morale.

We seem to have gone away from the subject under discussion, namely patter. Well here we are again; all I have to say about it now is that despite guff you read from Eugene Burger and others I do NOT recommend learning it off by heart. You will certainly sound stilted and ten to one you will forget the words halfway through the trick. It's a far better plan to get a general idea of what you wish to say, rehearse it aloud a few times with the props in hand, going through the motions of the trick as you do so, and finally when you come to perform you will sound more spontaneous than if you had learned the patter word for word.

After many performances you will find that you tend to say the same words over and over again anyway, but with more flexibility. If someone interrupts you will not be put off whereas if hte patter was learnt off by heart a break in the performance could throw you off completely.

There. Your lesson is complete.

Referring way back to Jay's reply to my post, all I meant was that the explanations in Expert Card Technique do seem very complex in the way they are explained..

I only meant unncessary to some of the stuff I read in there.. lots of variations of double lifts etc when you only need one or two.

Of course the slights are extremely useful..I just found Giobbi's card college a much simpler form of learning them..

--

As far as patter goes in presenting magic, it very much depends on your personality and the situation you are performing in as to what kind of patter you use.

You would never catch me talking about how " the jack represents the prince and the 7 resembles the goat.. " or some elaborate back story.

Joshua Jay has fantastic stories surrounding his efffects and they draw the audience in, but for some people this wont work. Some people are suited to minum lines.. just having enoug patter to provide an entertaining routine, provide misdirection.. and guide your spectators.

The amount of patter and what you say is largely down to you as a performer.. as long as what you say draws your audience in..

Well, you've certainly got some differing opinions here! Told you it'd be easier to buy a book

mark lewis wrote:I do NOT recommend learning it off by heart. You will certainly sound stilted and ten to one you will forget the words halfway through the trick. It's a far better plan to get a general idea of what you wish to say, rehearse it aloud a few times with the props in hand, going through the motions of the trick as you do so, and finally when you come to perform you will sound more spontaneous than if you had learned the patter word for word.

...If someone interrupts you will not be put off whereas if the patter was learnt off by heart a break in the performance could throw you off completely.

This is something you have to weigh up for yourself, but let it be known I and many others disagree with Mark on this point, although he's certainly welcome to his opinions as he's well aware!

Mark - you may be a seasoned pro who is used to stepping out in front of crowds and being spontaneous. But for us mere mortals, 9 out of 10 times, this is what happens: you practice in a mirror, you say to yourself "then I'd say something here, maybe ask them to do this/that/the other, then I'd patter a bit about XYZ..." but then you get out there and before you know it a routine that was perfect in your room suddenly doesn't seem so robust. When the deck is stickier than you remember, the room sweatier, the people less forgiving, the last thing you want to have to concentrate on is making it all up on the spot and "being spontaneous". Without a clear framework you will rush it, fill it with jibber jabber, forget to treat the magical moments with due gravity and generally fluff things all over the place. You might still complete the routine "successfully" and get a response, but it won't be the response you would have got if the routine had worked smoothly and efficiently.

I am not going to quite the extent that Burger does where he insists his students submit a written script for every routine (although I don't think it hurts). But it is one of these cases where freedom and spontanuity is actually created by planning, scripting and practice - like how if you go on an adventurous holiday, getting visas/money/credit cards/permits etc. for different countries in advance will mean you actually have the freedom to do all sorts of fun things, whilst your "I'll wing it, I'll be spontaneous" friends are stuck in some bereaucratic office for most of the week because they need to apply for a permit before they can cross a border.

I challenge Mark's comment completely with regard to coming across stilted, and that being interrupted will throw you off. I think it's exactly the opposite - these things will happen if you don't plan out the routine properly, because you'll be nervous, and you'll be trying to think of what to say next, and when someone introduces a tangent you'll then have no point of reference to which you know you must return.

I am absolutely not arguing against using random opportunities, being spontaneous etc - but I think you are in a far better position to do those things effectively and to enjoy yourself whilst you do it if you are safe in the knowledge that you have a very good idea of how the routine is going to pan out.
As you perform more, you will have more confidence to leave the tram tracks of the routine as you've practiced it and go off on the beaten track, just like trainer wheels on a bike. Your script will turn more into a series of bullet points; key instructions, gags and moments that are vital to the routine and upon which more impromptu stuff can be hung.

mark lewis wrote:For example, if you should make an amusing remark extemporaneously, try and remember it for future occasions. You will find as time goes by you will accumulate a stock of these remarks and you can weave them into your performances.

After many performances you will find that you tend to say the same words over and over again anyway, but with more flexibility.

Tomato tomato... Let's look critically at what's being said here... That after many performances you will settle into a comfortable and practiced presentation. Quite why Mark thinks that setting this out and practicing it before your first presentation is so damaging I don't know. Of course, if funny moments or ideal lines come up regularly, absorb them into your routine - it's not set in stone, and you should trim it, add to it etc. as you see fit. But whatever you do, you will feel more confident with a solid backbone to every routine because then you know that even if every other thing is against you, if you have stumbled across a joyless crowd who provide no banter of their own, you are at least going to get from A to B safely and professionally.

All the best

For some very general advice on people work, I know ZERO on magic presenting at the moment, But I have over 3 years in sales experience and was the youngest sales man in a car lot and a retail chain. I have taught other people how to do sales in retail, As well as I have done vacuum sales. But please excuse any of this if my advice makes zero sense in a magic side, I'm talking more on a purely people and sales and sociologist side for this.


First off,Get good with people learn to lie learn to know what people will believe when you lie, This means always look people in the eyes when you talk, And always use a odd number in a percent as even numbers are more likely to be made up people will think. I think a good sense of telling a lie is good when you try to make people believe you can do magic and that you your self believe this is mystical.

Second off, Get amazingly good social skills. Go to meetings hang out with different people make it a challenge to yourself to fit in not only with other people you like but,Geeks,jocks,goths,lower income,higher income,middle class. Overall I mean try to be a social butterfly. I found parties like raves were amazing to meet people from all over in a lower and younger bracket and then also going to a retirement center to see how to present yourself in a professional and clam manner and still get laughs and be fun to be around.

Third,Your still young enough that in a few years I suggest getting work for as a sales men theres nothing quite like it, And in fact if you have a Vacuum sales in your area I cannot suggest highly of doing that. The pay is horrible even if you do great you'll get max 300$ a week. However the experience you get of working with so many types of people in there homes is invaluable.

A example of this is when I showed my Kirby sales ring to a Radio manager looking to hire a new sales man we automatically had stories of how it is and what it is like doing that type of sales. And it really helped to bump me up to the top pool of applicants. and overall those 3 months in Kirby teaches you so much a book just can not do.

In closing, I can not tell you 100% how magic patter and social skills work like many of the talented people here can.But on a pure social skills. These are some of the most basic guidelines I can show. and I highly highly suggest getting a job in sales that pays commission if you can to see what it takes to attualy sell yourself to get your product(effect) sold. I mean people will love anything and buy anything as long as they love you.

P.S Sorry for typo's I'll error check tomorrow. Hope some of that helps in some way as well.

say what you can, as briefly and as clearly as you can to engage and make the person watching care about what you are doing...

rather than "hey, here's your card you idiot...you didnt see me do anything did you..."

that's kinda the basics...

make someone care in some way...interest them, personalise it...share something with them, a little secret or story between two people...

"It's not what you do, or how you do it. It's who does it. If they like you, if the who is right, then the what and the how must be right."

From Win the Crowd. Go buy.

themagicwand wrote:"It's not what you do, or how you do it. It's who does it. If they like you, if the who is right, then the what and the how must be right."

From Win the Crowd. Go buy.

Those are the words to live by and bleed by, I can not tell you how true those words are. They are the top with "never ask a closing question" as the second.

I am MARK LEWIS and cannot possibly be wrong. As for being a seasoned pro I learned this technique of NOT learning things off by heart when I was 16 years old and have done it that way ever since. I did it when I was not a seasoned pro and I continue to do it the same way now. The results are the same since I say the same things at every performance anyway. However the method I espouse is far superior.

It is not my teaching. It is the teaching of the people I learned from. Wilfrid Jonson espoused my method as did Hugard and Braue. Furthermore this is the method recommended by Dale Carnegie in his class on public speaking. Incidentally Harry Lorayne also recommends this procedure when giving speeches. At least he says so in black and white in his Super Power Memory book.

Please note that I did NOT say you shouldn't prepare. And neither did I say that you shouldn't learn your patter. I merely said that you shouldn't learn it by rote like a trained monkey or alternatively like a student of Eugene Burger.

And you shouldn't.

Incidentally in response to Icaruscomplex I DID sell vacuum cleaners and it was a bloody horrible experience. I DON'T recommend it.

mark lewis wrote:Incidentally in response to Icaruscomplex I DID sell vacuum cleaners and it was a bloody horrible experience. I DON'T recommend it.

Yes,It is horrible, But overall did you learn at all from it in how to sell a product to someone and present yourself to sell it? Maybe its just conflicting views but like I said I find it amazing experience in how people work in a social context and what you need to do, to make so many people in some many different lifestyle comfortable with you as a person in there house.