talkmagic.co.uk

I am only interested in me. Why would I be interested in you? Your hang ups about these matters are YOUR affair not mine.

Completely right. There is no must, I guess I, or maybe generation, are just used to seeing facts.

Point taken though Mark, glad things can be argued without personal insults...

Oh wait...Craig!

DrTodd wrote:I had a querent last night for whom I did a three card spread initially. The querent selected the Magician, Justice, and the Emperor. I used Enrique's system and did a 20 minute reading, where we explored how each card and the relationship among the cards evoked answers for the querent's concerns. The three cards were supplemented by a remakable draw of the 7, 8, and 9 of swords. All in all, the querent found the reading useful in providing a new way to address a current concern.

Reading this put me in mind of Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies. I think there was also a thread on The Mentalist Sanctum recently about using the Tarot for finding new perspectives on problems.

EE's approach liberates you from a 'this card means that' mentality and involves the querent much more, which in my view can only be of great value since they are paying for insight into their concerns.

Initially my querent was hostile toward the Magician... I merely pointed out some of the more salient features of the card (not any statement about meaning), such as the repitition of the number three, the infinity symbol of the magician's hat, etc...this opened a whole new line of discussion and helped provide a solution to the concern.

This is a powerful system, yet based on a very simple set of premises. Check out EE's weekly readings of cards here:

http://enriqueenriquez.net/_wsn/page17.html

and more here

http://marseille-tarot.blogspot.com/

Wow.

This discussion has turned out to be a hundred times more interesting than I hoped. Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far and everyone who might add something later.

I'm going to try and respond to as much as possible, but if I miss someone's point out it's only because there has been so much said and I can't sit here all day (well, I can, but I don't intend to!)

Mark Lewis wrote:Oh. She wants something from me now. She had better apologise for her previous impertinence in that case.

I would have thought that my explicit reference to you as someone I consider an expert would be reverence enough, Reverend. Public subservience is a filthy habit and I avoid it. However, my opinions on your personality aside, I would like your advice and insight. And you and I both know you secretly thrive on my impertinence, so don't pretend to need an apology, and that's the long and short of it. Boom, boom.

Craig Browning wrote:(everything he said)

Ouch. But thank you, too. I enjoyed your anger, it provided me with some confirmation bias.

To Robbie: Thanks for taking the time to do that reading for me. I got the feeling, though, that it could apply to anyone. It did apply to me, sort of, but like I said...

Thanks for the link to that PDF, Tomo - I will read that for sure

Michael Jay wrote:Do you honestly want to lose a dear friend? Well, you will if you indict her belief system.

I'm an atheist. When I have dinner with my parents, they pray. I pray with them. Why? Because I love them and I respect them. It is a show of respect. And, does it hurt me? Nope, not at all. They know my beliefs, but I can still respect their beliefs in their own home.

And, it's already been brought up, but would you attempt to explain to a cancer patient that they're just going to be eaten by worms? Would you crush them, too?

I'm all for having the courage to stand by what you believe and to refuse to remain quiet, but there is a time and a place - and attempting to crush your "dear" friend's spirit will never have a time or a place.

Who said anything about crushing? That's your invention, knowing nothing about my friend. And without wanting to sound right-wing, I honestly think that if a belief can be crushed then it's not much of a belief. My friend is the strongest person I know, mentally speaking - she couldn't be crushed. In fact, I consider her my life mentor, but we are both extremely straight-forward people and we both call a spade a spade (and a club a club, haha!). She'll be fine.

This is a really brilliant discussion...

Wild Card wrote:I would just like to say, just as Richard Dawkins does, it is the job of the Tarot Readers to prove they work, not us skeptics to prove the don't.

A classic cop-out along side "coincidence" and other such "scientific" perspectives.


Ok... perhaps I was a bit harsh on the young lady but when I see folks chalking up certain self-invented personalities as being "experts" and "hosting a valid/intelligent point of view" I do get a bit riled... especially given the realities around the situation.

The only way, in my experience at least, that someone can learn to see what the differences are, is to study and work regularly with an actual divination system. I don't mean "play with it" I mean doing dozens of readings a week for at least a year or two, keeping your own journal so as to see for yourself, some of the more amazing hits you will end up with that are totally free of the "theory" and supposed explanations found within the my cynical side of this industry.

Understand, I'm not saying that elements like the Forer, Barnum and "Dancing" type tactics aren't used and aren't part of the Reader's craft; they are and there are legitimate explanations around these things that sustains the lore about being a Psychic or Reader, as the case were, as well as being someone who is wise and seeking to actually help others via this trade. In simple terms, just because you can explain something to a certain degree does not negate that fact that the unlearned will still view it as valid and real... if that were the case we'd not have stage Illusionists pulling in tens of millions of dollars a year, now would we?

The major point that is (yet again) clouded here is the difference between Divination vs. Prophecy; being a Reader is NOT the same as being a "Prophet"! The sitter is given information based on what the Reader sees in the language of the oracle used and how it applies to the patron at that point in time. The patron retains his/her freedom of will and can readily change the outcome of certain information conveyed, which is one of the primary reasons we find the cynical mind pointing fingers and screaming about inaccuracies; they are deliberately (sometimes ignorantly) imposing the idea of Prophecy onto the use of an oracle, which is not their purpose.

Prophecy is something more or less carved in stone; it will happen! If you are supposed to be at the corner of Wilshire & Le Brea at 2:00 in the afternoon on September 3, 2010 you will be there! This is all part of Karmic law and what is typically referred to as our pre-life agreements made on the spiritual plane prior to inception... long story I'd prefer not to move into but there is plenty of material available for anyone to find if they WANT to find it.

The Purpose of an Oracle, if you were to look at history and even biblical references, was to aid us in making decisions; what would be the outcome if I do this vs. that? History being rife with demonstrations in which noted military minds (even in rather recent times) sought out the best times for exploiting an enemies vulnerabilities... as well as the defeat of said generals for not listening to what the oracle stated.


I will extend an apology of sorts to this young lady in that I was a bit over the top... then again, we are speaking of something I'm deeply invested in and I do get overly peeeeeed-off when folks want to limit who they want to hear from... which triggered my retort. The implication (at least from my point of view) being that "if you don't believe the same way, you're input don't count"... For far too long the myth that intelligence = atheism and any person with a belief of any kind is simply non-intelligent and a fool is something that simply rubs me very wrong and the gods know I've seen far too much abuse by some of the very folks this young lady invoked, who embrace said lie and the arrogance that is attached to it.

I will suggest to you however, to get away from those forums composed of mostly magicians who want to intermix magic with mentalism and find some of the more solid "Mentalism & Bizarre" only forums to which most all of your listed associates have either left as the result of their inability to run shod over things or else they have not and probably will never be invited into because of some of their more childish antics and "chest puffing" as it were... most of them thriving on the Magic Cafe mentality vs. what the real world and this industry are actually all about.

This forum has some very good people on it, it tends to have a more fair and rounded perspective on things; this thread (as I re-read much of it) offering you some sound direction here and there. But you will find a great deal of division here when it comes to your question and the fact that the cynics will never even attempt to see things in any thing other than black & white... they want it their way and that's it! If you don't conform to their point of view you are instantly seen as an idiot, a fraud, and a joke... more importantly, you could find yourself a target of their maliciousness and envy, so it is up to you where and how you will ultimately fit in; not just here, but in the auspices of life itself.... that place with respecting the views of others is the only way you will ever really move forward in life

queen of clubs wrote:I am convinced there is nothing to Tarot that is other worldly, or mystic, or spooky - it's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's "real".

"Otherwordly" - no.

"Mystic" - in the traditional sense, no.

"Spooky" - no, although the results may have that effect.

"It's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's 'real'."

You mean like magic? Well, the sort that isn't presented merely as puzzles or someone showing off their technical skill, XCM, that kind of thing.

Sorry, I couldn't resist being a little provocative.

Rather than giving Kate access to a forum for which she expresses no interest (other than this), maybe people should just cite what they've said in the Mentalism forum here, so long as it's OK for the public sections.

Recently, I gave my views on what being psychic means to me, which is probably near enough to this topic to merit inclusion:

Part-Timer wrote:My view is that being 'psychic' is really a form of heightened intuition. It's a combination of subconsciously (or consciously) picking up on things, guesses (even if they don't feel like guesses at the time), the fact that people tend to give feedback when you're on the right lines, that they are more likely to remember hits than misses, that most reading systems have inbuilt sets of 'Barnum statements' or vague statements, the fact that while all people are individuals, we're more alike than many realise, and that most people's favourite topic of conversation is themselves.

As you can see, it's actually quite like your view. However, I don't think Tarot reading is terrible evil thing and that anyone who believes in it is a fool, or a liar imposing some kind of con on those getting a reading, because I think it can work (in the sense of be helpful).

Just not in the way you might be thinking.

It works because, generally, the only person who can sort out a problem they have is that person. However, sometimes people need guidance. The symbolism of the Tarot works not just on the reader, but also the sitter. Of course, some readers will make dangerous statements about this or that, just as some psychologists can cause more problems than they solve for their patients; it doesn't invalidate the principle.

The Enrique Enriquez lecture Dr Todd mentioned was amazing. It really opened my eyes to a very different approach to the Tarot, and one that seemed to make a lot more sense to me than a system of learned meanings. That's probably because, of Robbie's list of ways in which the Tarot works, the closest to my view is number 1.

Wow this topic was certainly more indepth to what I thought was going to be some easy sunday reading. We seem to have drifted of into every belief system at the minute. Perosnnally I'll try not to ramble too much.

But I don't really understand why anyone would want to rule out anything and dismiss tarot. I don't believe it myself but if it helps people get on with life then whats the harm. I was born under terrible circumstances and have had fairly hard things to deal with in life. In doing so I may have developed beliefs that many would argue with but its helped me get on with life and enjoy it. So I don't see the harm.

As for tarot I think its more to do with interpretation. While these pasteboards and readings may not be the truth to me it is how the people interpret them and with that can get something good out of it. After all we can look at the clouds above and see different shapes and objects. Yet they are still just clouds at the end of the day. A bit like tarot cards being pasteboards, but maybe they can help people open their eyes to something else in life.

Live and let live, thats what I think.

Who said anything about crushing? That's your invention, knowing nothing about my friend. And without wanting to sound right-wing, I honestly think that if a belief can be crushed then it's not much of a belief. My friend is the strongest person I know, mentally speaking - she couldn't be crushed. In fact, I consider her my life mentor, but we are both extremely straight-forward people and we both call a spade a spade (and a club a club, haha!). She'll be fine.

This is a really brilliant discussion...

Sorry, my fault. I assumed that you had offended her, since you specifically stated that she was offended. Since the definition of offended is, "to cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in," I just assumed that when you cause resentment and other negative emotions in someone, they don't usually stay friends with you for very long.

At least, that has always been my experience.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:Sorry, my fault. I assumed that you had offended her, since you specifically stated that she was offended. Since the definition of offended is, "to cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in," I just assumed that when you cause resentment and other negative emotions in someone, they don't usually stay friends with you for very long.

Rewind for just a second... there is no ambiguity here. I said I offended her and I did offend her. You, however, said I "crushed" her belief system, which I did not and could not even if I was wicked enough to try. You're now trying to make me seem a hypocrite by saying I never said I'd offended her when my reply to you dealt with "crush" not "offend".

As for Craig Browning - who has bizarrely chosen not to address me directly, preferring to write in the third person and refer to me as "the young lady" - I'm very open to the things he assumes I've closed the door on. I was just asking for the truth.

I'm pretty happy, having read all of these replies, that Tarot is just a tool. For instance if I stacked and false shuffled a Tarot deck and received a reading I imagine the practicioner would still manage to make the drawn cards apply to me somehow, and insist it was the invisible ghouls who flapped into the room and ordered the deck.

Again, I apologize. I understood you to mean one thing when you meant another. I just wanted you to understand that I did not jump to a conclusion, but went with what I felt you were trying to say.

How many apologies would you like?

But, I'll tell you this in all honesty, what you said to your friend sounds pretty crushing to me - to wit:

...I pretty much told her it was all utter charlatanism, bunk, tosh, Barnum statements, lucky guesses, cold reading, inside knowledge, psychology, sociology, misdirection and piddle.

Mike.

queen of clubs wrote:I'm pretty happy, having read all of these replies, that Tarot is just a tool. For instance if I stacked and false shuffled a Tarot deck and received a reading I imagine the practicioner would still manage to make the drawn cards apply to me somehow, and insist it was the invisible ghouls who flapped into the room and ordered the deck.

if that's what you've gotten from these posts...then maybe you've missed the point katie? unless you we're being sarcastic and i missed it...

especially the enrique enriquez way of thinking...nothing to do with ghouls or making things fit...

i honestly think this, for you - the answer is "no there's nothing in it at all, none of the posts are anything near what i believe - so therefore, pffft..its all rubbish.."

which is fair enough - i dont see any problem in that...i do hope though, that you don't trust your "gut extincts", any "female intuition" and look at everything you come across in life with clinical cold hard facts...

because trusting those things is on equal par with using art/music/language/tarot/ as a tool to discover things or recover things that are within you...

i don't know anyone who does that, everyone has a few little weaknesses and biases. they either dont label them as such, or view them in a different light...

ever smelt a smell and instantly be taken back to a time and a place? on one hand, it truly is that taking place...

on the other, its the broken down chemicals within that smell that are processed by your olfactory senses and then a section of your brain processes those chemicals, and another part of the brain then tells the subconcious - "ah that means you've smelt freshly cut grass...what have we got in here along with it...ah iain (me) seeing his dad cutting the lawn in the 70s on a sunday...let's remind him of that..."

all from blades of grass...that smell "means" something to me on one level, but taking my emotive state out of it all, it's just the scent released when cut by blades and that travelling on the air...

i prefer to think of my dad cutting the grass though...

bit of a ramble again - but, well...we all have our biases, we all need to learn to except each others views, however annoying they are...

i get just as annoyed at fundamental atheists as i do fundamental christians/muslims/catholics/ad infinitum...

i could kick up a fuss and say to my fellow atheists "well, you can't prove what happened before the big bang - therefore you're talking rubbish..."

but i don't..

Michael Jay wrote:How many apologies would you like?

Twelve.

It is about to be a legal requirement in the UK for Tarot readers (and similar others) to inform their customers that it is just a bit of entertainment, with no confirmed scientific basis. How do the practitioners envisage that this will affect thier activities?

abraxus wrote:

queen of clubs wrote:I'm pretty happy, having read all of these replies, that Tarot is just a tool. For instance if I stacked and false shuffled a Tarot deck and received a reading I imagine the practicioner would still manage to make the drawn cards apply to me somehow, and insist it was the invisible ghouls who flapped into the room and ordered the deck.

if that's what you've gotten from these posts...then maybe you've missed the point katie? unless you we're being sarcastic and i missed it...

Isn't that what it is, though? A tool with which to build a framework for intuition that has nothing really to do with the pasteboards? You could get the same effect with a crude deck you made yourself by kicking a cardboard box into pieces and doodling something different on each ragged scrap, so obviously there is nothing "special" about a deck of Tarot cards. They don't hold any power. The power is in the person who does the reading, and the reading is whatever they want it to be.

For instance, there is no possible way a reader would turn over a card and go "Oh, hang on, something's gone wrong because this card can't possibly apply to you" - they will ALWAYS make it fit. And it will always be vague enough to impress most laypeople.

In answer to bigtone33 there is no problem whatever. Just give each client a leaflet full of new age guff that indirectly tells them that psychic readings are a load of baloney and you will be covered legally. I have one that was drawn up by a lawyer.

The clients will ignore the guff mainly because they won't be bright enough to understand it.

However let me be clear that I do NOT believe psychic readings are baloney. I believe they work and can do a great deal of good for people. They can also do a great deal of harm so I would advise people here to steer clear of any readings that have any depth to them. You can screw up someone's life if you don't know what you are doing.