talkmagic.co.uk

no deck holds any power...

the imagery is supposed to let people, or rather give permission to the person asking the question to explore what that imagery means to them and their question...no more, no less...

yes, you could do it with toilet paper with different symbols on them...

would you ever speak to a counsellor katie? some people would be ashamed or embarrassed to do so, because they have a built up picture of what that means....

the same goes for going to a tarot reader...some would be ashamed of that, again because they probably built up a picture of what that means too...

there's no definitive answer to any of this..much like life.

Basically, in its crudest form, the imagery lets the person with the question or problem sit and approach that problem from different angles...maybe because they just havent seen it from a alternative perspectives before - maybe because using tarot as a tool to let them take a step out of that problem...

i know people who got nothing out of talking to psychologists or visiting hypnotherapists...

some psychologists have been nutters, freud wasnt particularly stable, jung explored some unusual methods...there's bad scientists and counsellors as well as bad palmists and tarot readers...

if you think it's all rubbish - then fine! im not wanting to change your mind...my personal belief is that its just fascinating what art and symbology can mean to different people...

you should be allowed your opinion, as should everyone else...

Wow. I go to bed for a few hours and look what happens. All the talking has been done - and some of you guys said a mothful! I feel no desire to prove anything regarding the tarot to anybody. These kind of discussions do tend to become an exercise in futility in that no-one's point of view is going to be drastically altered by a discussion on here.

Anyway, according to Craig Browning I'm a "self-invented personality" who is not an expert and doesn't hold a valid viewpoint. Hurumph. Perhaps when Craig's done as many readings as me he'll learn a little professional courtesy.

Only kidding Craig.

I am wondering if he is talking about me..............
People often say that I am inventing my online personality. If he is talking about me I can assure him that I have done thousands upon thousands of paid readings. I wish I bloody hadn't.

I think he is making us all a little paranoic. I expect it is simply because the young lady from Yorkshire didn't mention him when she asked for the advice of various people. He is merely sulking because he wasn't mentioned.

I do wish he would clear up the mystery. Who specifically is he talking about?

So, Mr Lewis, are you going to give me some advice or not? You've toyed with me enough, put me out of my misery. Give me your expertise and give me it hard.

I'm not going to apologise for my "previous insolence" or whatever you called it, because I'm proud of it, but feel free to re-arrange these letters to form a word:

S R R O Y

I thought that I did advise on the matter somewhere on this thread. Do pay attention my dear.

I could say more but old people run out of energy you know. You must go back over the thread and where I explained how the tarot works.

I do have a DVD course for sale you know concerning these matters. Just thought I'd mention it.

As for Craig Browning - who has bizarrely chosen not to address me directly, preferring to write in the third person and refer to me as "the young lady" - I'm very open to the things he assumes I've closed the door on. I was just asking for the truth.

Pardon for not addressing you directly... in discussions like this one is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Secondly, what I'm hearing (reading) in your posts still sounds like the "I have my mind made up" mode of cynical expression I've come to expect from the typical magic buff... you see, I'm very skeptical when it comes to seeing folks with a head full of magic tricks and logic statements actually open that mind long enough to go out and learn that things aren't as cut and dry as we'd like -- the world has lots of grey shades, not black & white confinements. I happen to be one of those people that live within the grey area who has known the "dark side" that's so rife with left brain mania (or is that right brain that's the logic only side... hmmmm I've read at least 5 articles from different "scientific" sources recently and it would seem there remains confusion on that front... one book says it's the left brain that is anal retentive and the aspiring Vulcan while the right brain loves rainbows and tall tales... that's the one I'm going to go with... though others have stated the opposite)

Then there's the psychological/demographic realities when it comes to "Logical People" ... I'll let you intellectual folks look that one up less I get accused of bad mouthing y'all again.

Getting back to the complaint of my not speaking to you there is one other reason I haven't addressed you by name... I forgot it and couldn't find it when I was typing. Though there are a few characters around here that will tell you that I'm even faking my health issues, the fact remains that my mind drifts readily and I have a crappy short-term memory, even with people I've known for years. Please don't take it personal, but I am an absent minded professor of sorts. But then, you should probably take any email or PM nudges sent your way about me, with a small Ukrainian Salt Mine... I know that there are a couple of busy bodies trying to convince folks of things about me and their little games are blowing up in their own face, making them look smaller than small in the eyes and mind of those who count. So take whatever they've said with a large dose of caution, please!

I only bring that up as a "just in case" in that your posting on my not addressing you directly, sounded as if you'd already had that particular starling in your bonnet. I could be misreading things (a curse of the written word and forums) then again, I understand how smugness seems to come with the cynic's mind-set.

Pardon... it's just a matter of defensive habit... and very long term observation. I so tire of this pettiness and how people preach from one side of their *rse that we need to let one another be... live and let live, etc. and yet, from the other side of the same smelly orifice these same people are saying people are fools, idiots and gullible freaks for believing in anything outside of how I see the world and how things should be, and it's my right to invade any person's belief or reality with my two-cents worth.

If my words caused you discomfort and pain, as some have suggested they did, just ponder how much deeper that angst was for your supposed friend when you attacked her beliefs without being invited to do so. It is not your job or mine to tell anyone what to believe or disbelieve, we can only help them find that mid-point where legitimate balance exists; where the logical and the more fantasiful come together as it was long ago prior to the division of religion from culture and science some 1,800 or so years back. That's why Buddhism works as does most Shamanism; they marry the prowess of the mind, heart, body and soul so as to create a sound and harmonious cohesion. That is the only thing any of us should want for one another -- harmony, not oneupmanship or the egotistic idea that faith is akin to weakness or even ignorance.

Pardon me for rambling... I get exceptionally up tight when this kind of thing is brought to the fore.

Isn't that what it is, though? A tool with which to build a framework for intuition that has nothing really to do with the pasteboards? You could get the same effect with a crude deck you made yourself by kicking a cardboard box into pieces and doodling something different on each ragged scrap, so obviously there is nothing "special" about a deck of Tarot cards. They don't hold any power. The power is in the person who does the reading, and the reading is whatever they want it to be.

For instance, there is no possible way a reader would turn over a card and go "Oh, hang on, something's gone wrong because this card can't possibly apply to you" - they will ALWAYS make it fit. And it will always be vague enough to impress most laypeople.

There is a certain 'power' to the cards as they are steeped in history and have connections to metaphysical developments over hundreds of years The symbology and iconography (or branding if you will) do draw people in, which makes them more effective than pieces of card board. While there are hundreds of decks available,I am personally drawn to the more historical versions such as the Noblet decks.

Oh..and if you want some practice, check out this resource from Doug Dyment:
http://www.deceptionary.com/tutor-tarot.html

Just to add another wee point-

It has been brought up a few times that these tarot cards are only pasteboards and do not mean anything. Yet the bible is only a pile of pages stuck together at one end with words written all over it.

While I'm not religious myself, the bible may only be a book but it is what it represents and teaches that is really important. Much like these tarot cards- its not what they're physically made of but what the symbols represent.

Just a thought.

I've been reading the tarot for quite a few years and do honestly believe that there's something in it. Here's my little theory on it (this could turn into quite a waffle, so be warned )....

So what is so special and mysterious about the tarot cards. Well absolutly nothing, they are exactly what they are, a few bits of card with pretty pictures on them. It's no different at all from putting your hand into a pencil case and pulling out a handful of different colour pencils, arranging them in a row and seeing the future in them.

What makes them special is the meaning that you give the cards that makes them what they are. As I said it doesn't have to be tarot cards, if you gave those colour pencils meaning then they would work just as well (and yes, I have done readings with colour pencils in the past).

The most important thing to remember is that the order that the cards a drawn is not at all random, it's determined by the way the cards are shuffled. They may seem random but in the same way that apparently random events in your everyday life aren't really random at all, eveything is influenced by outside influences to some dagree or another. The order of the cards is also influenced by an outside force, in this case the shuffler.

Is it possible that some of those forces that are going to effect our future of perhaps the forces that will effect the forces are already in play (as everything is just a part of some big chain reaction) and are already having an impact on our subconsious. Kind of like in the same way that if we're playing a game of Black Jack and the first two cards you draw are aces, I know that you'll twist. Perhaps our subconsious are able to look at those subtle little tell tale signs and have a good guess about what effect they're going to have on the future. Kind of like an intuition.

Ok then back to the cards... We've given the cards a shuffle, so it's us that's put them into the order that they're in. Perpaps, just maybe at some subconsious, intuitional level, we've put them into the order to represent the events that our intuition is predicting.

Certainly no water tight theory I know, just some thoughts of mine on the subject.

The mind's an amazing thing, who knows if this is possible or not?

This post isn't directed to anyone in particular so please don't get your preverbial knickers in a twist.
It utterly astounds and amazes me the amount of startling nonsense that human beings are able to believe in.
From invisible magic men with beards and a penchant for genocide to special energies (which no one has ever observed) that heal via pieces of rock.
Of course any of the multitude of pseudo-sciences or a 3000 of the Gods and dieties that human being indulge in following or believing in could be the real deal but the overall likelihood is that most or all are superstitious nonsense.
The idea that it "Could" be real isn't really the problem here I feel but the concept that an idea should be taken seriously wiithout any independantly double blind empirical evidence that points to it.

I do believe that people have the inate right to believe what ever they want as long as they do know harm to others but in many cases of this ilk I feel harm is being done.
For example in such cases as pseudo-science medicine. A drug company has to go through years of double blind trials to make sure of the effectiveness and safety of a new product and if it is proven to be dangerous or ineffective the study still has to be released to the public domain.
Does Homeopathy have to endure such rigerous trials? I think not. These can lead to people being mislead into thinking they are effective forms of treatment.

As previously said people can believe whatever they want but without using rationality and evidence to back such things up then I think I have the right to not take them at all seriously and would urge others to do the same.

You're dead right Greedo and what you say about alternative medicines is a very good point. I've always been very interested in herbal medicine and always grab a few feverfew leaves before a panadol, but I know there are limits to what this kind of medicine can do for you and if things don't seem to get any better I'm more than happy to trundle off to see the doctor.

I think the problem comes from people who are totally blind to anything other than their alternative approaches and will refuse to see the doc, instead thinking that they hold the magical cure and it's only a matter of time. They're the ones who are doing themselves serious damage.

I dont wish to via this thread away from it's original topic but I just wish to add a thought about herbal remedies.
The idea that herbal is better that convential medicine is also a flighty fantasy. The idea has been sown that natural is better. All the medical companies do with many compunds is extract the active ingredient and place that into pill form.
Asprin is a great example of this. Instead of chewing on wood bark and maybe ingesting toxins in the wood along with the active ingredient just take the purified form which has correct dosage.

I just wish that one day that people will realise that one of the greatest traits of the human being is to use rationality and logic to examine our enviroment and fully embrace this concept.
Maybe the need to believe in the fantastic and mysterious is a reaction to keep the magic and wonderment of the universe. For those who do believe this then I really think that one hasn't graspedhow astounding the universe is without the need for envoking spirits, hocus pocus and the likes.
Try reading Cosmos by Carl Sagan and try not to get wrapped up in the fascinating universe through the clear and inquisitive eyes of rationality. I bet you can't.

I see that lady of mystery is a believer in Jung's theory of synchronicity in regards to the tarot. I do not share that view. I believe that the cards DO come up at random and that it is the psychic himself who brings accuracy to the interpretation.

As for doctors and drug companies I don't trust the b******s. Drug companies are a bunch of wicked people who kill as much as they cure. As for doctors I am not enamoured of them and I have always suspected that they are the ones who bloody kill you more than they cure you.

My suspicions were borne out by a report from Israel as to what happened when all the doctors went on strike. The death rate went DOWN! In fact it upset the undertakers so much that their association demanded back-to-work legislation to force the doctors back. The undertakers were very upset at the lack of business caused by the strike.

In fact there was only one part of Israel where the death rate didn't go down as a result of the strike. It was in a part of the country where the doctors weren't allowed to strike.

I told my doctor of this report and he found it terribly amusing. He would of course because the b***** knew it was perfectly true.

I cant wait to see you put your life where you mouth is when something happens which it will to all of us.

I for one had testicular cancer when I was younger and am completely in awe of the work that the doctors did to save my life.
This is what really pains me (apart from the missing testicle) that people are so willing celebrate alternative therapies and poo poo convential medicine but as soon as their life is on the line I rarely see them avoiding it in favour for the alternativ threrapy.
Even worse they do both and then when they are cured they give all the credit to the bunkem science.

Oh, I think alternative medicine is a load of c*** (not the best) too. However the doctors are not much better. They misdiagnose all the time, they prescribe medicines full of toxic poisons and side effects and are liable to amputate your leg just because you have a slight headache.

No. I am no fan of them. And to compound the problem some of them are amateur magicians who if they can't kill you in their surgery at least they can kill you with boredom outside it.