talkmagic.co.uk

greedoniz wrote: A drug company has to go through years of double blind trials to make sure of the effectiveness and safety of a new product and if it is proven to be dangerous or ineffective the study still has to be released to the public domain.

...you'd think, wouldn't you?!

Homeopathy = placebo. It's tosh, it really is, but sadly, the medical profession are not allowed to give out sugar pills, telling people it's the latest cure for their ailments. If we could, the nation's "health" would improve overnight. But whilst some doctors make a big point of poo-pooing alternative medicine (which I understand in cases where people are forgoing available and effective treatment in favour of quack potions), I don't have a massive problem with it because they all have one thing in common - time for oneself.

In the NHS you are battered pillar to post because we are trying to get you to the right specialist ASAP and move on to the next person in line. You have 6 minute appointments but 6 month waiting lists. However, go to a homeopathist, aromatherapist, reiki practioner, herbalist, witch doctor or whatever, and you are given time... time to relax, time for catharsis as they listen to your ailments, you're encouraged to think positively etc. The funny candle or herbal tea they give you to take home is effectively a psychological "anchor" for their brand of "well being therapy".

So whilst it isn't going to cure your cancer, it *is* providing something which, at the moment, the NHS can't. And when I'm a doctor, I will quite happily send people off to whatever alternative complementary quack they wish, because it's the same as prescribing a placebo.


Unfortunately, the UK is probably the least satisfying place to be a medic - when things go wrong, people blame us, when they go right they thank God. In other cultures, "the gods" are held responsible for disease, and they get better it's the doctors they thank!

I know we've veered off topic a bit but that's the fun of these things...

I am going to attempt to connect this back to Tarot.

the Palcebo effect is absolutely a real and measurable phenomenia which can and does cause people to recover. So if the person believes in the cure enough then it doesn't matter what it is sugar pill, energy crystals, licking the back of auntie bessies coughing frog etc.
What we should be looking for here are cures that work for the majority of cases above and beyond that of the placebo effect.

And maybe this is what Tarot offers people. even though it has no evidence to back it makes them feel good about themselves. A mind placebo.
Many people would be okay with this and say leave it be but I personally think people should seek out what is true rather than what is comforting and also the people making money from people with this sham.

I agree that the reader may be able to pick up certain information about the subject but using common sense, generalising statements and a bit of guessing but the idea that any human can see the future or can access information via a supernatural source is something we should all be very skeptical about.
I will leave this with a quote from Michael Shermer:

The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between “know nothing” skepticism and “anything goes” credulity.
Over three centuries ago the French philosopher and skeptic, René Descartes, after one of the most thorough skeptical purges in intellectual history, concluded that he knew one thing for certain: Cogito ergo sum — I think therefore I am. But evolution may have designed us in the other direction. Humans evolved to be pattern-seeking, cause-inferring animals, shaped by nature to find meaningful relationships in the world. Those who were best at doing this left behind the most offspring. We are their descendents. In other words, to be human is to think:

Sum Ergo Cogito —
I Am Therefore I Think.

One thing with tarot, regardless if there's anything in it or not is that it can give people comfort.

I can see were Greedo's comming from but even the most rational of us don't always thing like that. Our emotions can take over and there are time when we all just need that little hug and for some one to say 'there, there, everything's going to be ok'. And that's what the tarot is for, it's that little reassuring voice that tells you that everything will be ok.

If I do a reading for someone and can show them a glimer of light at the end of what could be a very long and very dark tunnel then it doesn't matter if what I'm doing has any grounding or not, I've just given that person a very important thing. Hope.

A question for Greedo:

Do we gaze at the stars because we're human or are we human because we gaze at the stars?

Mike.

Some nice thoughts there guys.

It's kinda what I've been saying from the start. That it doesn't matter if you believe in it yourself or not. But tarot may be a means of hope and direction to some people. If someone believes in it and gets some good out of it then who am I to judge or tell someone that they're wrong.

Let me tell you a quick true story- A friend of mine recently discovered that he has a tumor in his brain. Things are not looking good to be honest and he knows that. A while ago (in addition to the doctors help) he went to a faith healer is helping to rid him of this tumor by channelling his energy into the effected area. He also receives a nice wee sum of money for his services. I personnally thought it was all complete b*****ks. Most people he tells about this thinks the same. But his reply is always the same-

"I sleep a lot easier in bed at night knowing that I am trying everything possible to beat this. It may not work and be complete rubbish but what have I got to lose considering my situation?"

Michael Jay wrote:A question for Greedo:

Do we gaze at the stars because we're human or are we human because we gaze at the stars?

Mike.

neither. The star are there and we are able to view them due to us evolving eyes and that the atmosphere is clear enough for the light from those stars to reach us.
Being human has no bearing on being able to see stars. I'm sure if a moth can navigate by moonlight then if it squints enough it can see the stars.

Wills wrote:Some nice thoughts there guys.

It's kinda what I've been saying from the start. That it doesn't matter if you believe in it yourself or not. But tarot may be a means of hope and direction to some people. If someone believes in it and gets some good out of it then who am I to judge or tell someone that they're wrong.

Let me tell you a quick true story- A friend of mine recently discovered that he has a tumor in his brain. Things are not looking good to be honest and he knows that. A while ago (in addition to the doctors help) he went to a faith healer is helping to rid him of this tumor by channelling his energy into the effected area. He also receives a nice wee sum of money for his services. I personnally thought it was all complete b*****ks. Most people he tells about this thinks the same. But his reply is always the same-

"I sleep a lot easier in bed at night knowing that I am trying everything possible to beat this. It may not work and be complete rubbish but what have I got to lose considering my situation?"

it is not entirely the fact that your mate is trying everything to stay alive that's the problem but that there are people taking advantage of this desperation.Would you sell a bloke trapped on the edge of a cliff and about to fall off an invisible rope just so he can feel better about his situation?

Tarot has absolutely nothing to do with mind reading or fortune telling. That has developed in more "modern" times. Tarot cards were developed as a means of preserving knowledge of the Knights Templar, and part of their story and legend. That was some 7-800 years ago. The Minor arcana became our common playing cards. The major arcana became, mostly, a fortune telling game. Some of the pictures have also been altered over the years, because of the church (mostly). In modern times, they have been altered much more by artists who have little-to-no idea what the cards are about.

The reason for the creation of the cards was a disgruntled church, who eventually decided the Knights Templar were working against her "best" interest. For the Knights, it was a way of preserving knowledge - esoteric and otherwise. Eventually, the cards were outlawed, too. The Knights Templar were exterminated - the cards survived, but their true meaning and value have been all but lost to history. There are sources, though, that will help a bit in determining that, but this isn't the time or place.

The main gripe against the Templar Knights was that they held knowledge that was injurious to the church, as truth often is. That is how they became "heretics", according to the "benevolent" church, and were quickly put to death - and not in the most pleasant ways.

Through association, the cards can be used as an aid for fortune tellers. Fortune telling is a skill that has often been developed without consciousness of the psychology, and subtle "intuition" or deductive reasoning involved. In modern times, a more "scientific" approach has become popular, in which folks can "learn" to tell fortunes - even if they lack intuition skills. They probably won't be as good at it as a more sensitive and life-experienced person might.

Faith is an interesting topic, as is religion in general. The topic of psychic phenomenon is interesting too. Sadly, you will not garner all of the information you need to make a well educated decision about any of these things from a chat group. I will say this, though. Most practitioners of religion claim that they are interested, have faith and believe, etc. Very few have done the tremendous amount of work and research needed to uncover the actual truth regarding the derivation of these things, in particular, the religion they so fervently believe in.

I am not one to put down religion, and I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to toy with people's belief systems. Religion does serve a purpose, as it has since the dawn of civilization. Magic, religion, science, et al, have the same birth place. Modern magicians are another group of folks, most of whom have not taken upon themselves the time, work and study necessary to uncover all the roots of their own art.

It is not necessary to be a scholar, if you want to be an entertainer using magic tricks to accomplish your goal. Likewise, it is not necessary to be a scholar if your goal is to do mind reading and fortune telling, for money or otherwise. It is also not necessary, obviously, to be a scholar to be the devotee of this or another religion. To truly understand any of these things, that is, to get at their root and understand the "inner sanctum" of religion, magic, etc, it takes a tremendous amount of effort, combined with an undying thirst for truth.

The easier thing to do is to believe, and in my opinion, there is NOTHING wrong with that! Unless, of course, the beliefs are starting to cause death through wars, or inquisitions, or burnings, or expulsions, or prejudice, or hatred, etc. But, of course, that's the history of the world, no? If it weren't for all these terrible things, we wouldn't have a Tarot deck at all!

greedoniz wrote:

Michael Jay wrote:A question for Greedo:

Do we gaze at the stars because we're human or are we human because we gaze at the stars?

Mike.

neither. The star are there and we are able to view them due to us evolving eyes and that the atmosphere is clear enough for the light from those stars to reach us.
Being human has no bearing on being able to see stars. I'm sure if a moth can navigate by moonlight then if it squints enough it can see the stars.

Not see, Greedo, but gaze. There is a difference. Any animal with eyes can see them, but they do not gaze at them.

Mike.

I've heard dogs can't look up.

only kidding

May I ask where one is going with this line of enquiry?

Originally, it was just a simple joke based on your post where you state:

"Cogito ergo sum — I think therefore I am" followed by "Sum Ergo Cogito — I Am Therefore I Think."

Unfortunately, it must have been purely lame, so no worries, just drop it and I'll return back to my rock.

Mike.

ahh it does remind me of The Shinx in the film "Mystery Men".

To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.

He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions.

When you care what is outside, what is inside cares for you

Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage... well I'm sure you can work he end of that one out

greedoniz wrote:

Wills wrote:Some nice thoughts there guys.

It's kinda what I've been saying from the start. That it doesn't matter if you believe in it yourself or not. But tarot may be a means of hope and direction to some people. If someone believes in it and gets some good out of it then who am I to judge or tell someone that they're wrong.

Let me tell you a quick true story- A friend of mine recently discovered that he has a tumor in his brain. Things are not looking good to be honest and he knows that. A while ago (in addition to the doctors help) he went to a faith healer is helping to rid him of this tumor by channelling his energy into the effected area. He also receives a nice wee sum of money for his services. I personnally thought it was all complete b*****ks. Most people he tells about this thinks the same. But his reply is always the same-

"I sleep a lot easier in bed at night knowing that I am trying everything possible to beat this. It may not work and be complete rubbish but what have I got to lose considering my situation?"

it is not entirely the fact that your mate is trying everything to stay alive that's the problem but that there are people taking advantage of this desperation.Would you sell a bloke trapped on the edge of a cliff and about to fall off an invisible rope just so he can feel better about his situation?

I agree I think its a con and taking advantage of a desperate mans panic. I've told him so but hopefully in a tactful way, I don't want to just dismiss his beliefs like that. He says that the guy provides him with support, guidance and hope. I don't argree with it at all but there's no point arguing with him, he says the treatment is helping, albeit in a placebo effect.

If it were me I'd spend the money on as much mind intoxicating things I could get my hands on and make sure I have one hell of a party in the event that the worse is about to happen.

I'd love to read your palm greedoniz. That would be fun. I find palmistry to be around 90% accurate when it comes to personality profiling.

BTW - anybody ever seen a ghost? That can be a very liberating experience. It gives you a whole new pair of specs to see the world through.

Rooby rooby roo!

The great thing about the cogito quote and scepticism is that Descartes was still highly religious and a Rosicrucian to boot!

Nice post from Steve Shufton...