talkmagic.co.uk

Queen Of Clubs,

Thanks for the reply and yes, it does make sense. I think in topics like this one, which always seem to get heated, it gives a clear view of your reasons.

Hope I didn't offend, as that wasn't the reason for my post. I think that if you had posted that to start with, you wouldn't have had quite such a tongue lashing from some.

Have you ever read Thomas Harris, Craig? You seem to have a penchant for indulging what you imagine is a finely honed tool of perception in your long replies that I can't help feeling should be narrated in the voice of Hannibal Lecter.

You start off by calling me arrogant and then go on to explain that because I can't bring myself to believe in the paranormal then there is something wrong with me, but not only that, also you know how to help me "fix" my problem. Who's the arrogant one here?

I was interested that you asked of me "...please don't come back with the cliche line of "I don't have to do Heroin to know it what it will do..." or some such." and don't worry, I wouldn't dream of it, in this instance it would be a very clunky retort. I'll give you a much better analogy instead:

An atheist goes to a happy-clappy Christian website and says "I'm an atheist but I'd like to know what you people believe". After all the different points of view have been trotted out she is still an atheist. She is then accused of being closed minded by one of the most happy-clappy of the regulars - let's call him, I dunno, Greg Downing - who tells her that her opinion is arrogant and that the only way she can REALLY, TRULY understand the Good News is if she accepts Christ as her Lord and Saviour and proclaims Him to be the King of Kings. "But I'm an atheist" she says, confused and ever so slightly amused.

Queeny, I think, due to psychic cross traffic, he was reading me instead of you. I was the one who was thinking you are smarter and sexier than most of the world. The "more important" part he must have "picked up" from somewhere else -

In reply to the original question: how does the tarot work?

They act as prompts to encourage the reader's own intuition.

There's an old saying in magic - "It's not the trick dummy, it's you."

Where tarot cards are concerned it's more a case of - "It's not the cards dummy, it's you."

themagicwand wrote:In reply to the original question: how does the tarot work?

They act as prompts to encourage the reader's own intuition.

There's an old saying in magic - "It's not the trick dummy, it's you."

Where tarot cards are concerned it's more a case of - "It's not the cards dummy, it's you."

And the role for the sitter in your work Paul? Is there dialogue and co-creation of the reading?

To be fair, Kate - your analogy isn't entirely accurate.

you didn't start the thread with a simple question - you prefaced it with this:

"it was all utter charlatanism, bunk, tosh, Barnum statements, lucky guesses, cold reading, inside knowledge, psychology, sociology, misdirection and piddle"

You can't say that first, ask the question - and then expect the "true believers" to be hospitable in return.

I wouldn't have called your opinions towards this subject arrogant - I would just say that you have an abhorrence towards it (even in your religious analogy, you couldn't help but start it with a derisive "happy clappy" intro - instead of just "a Christian web site"). Also - don't bother yourself with pointing out Craig's arrogance. He's well aware of it - and quite proud of it. Anyone who has been here for a while also knows that if he needs 10 words to make his point, he types 100. (Craig, I just bought your book - be nice, sir!) While his responses may have gone a bit overboard, can you honestly not see WHY he has been so abrasive?

Perhaps if you had started this thread with your thirst for knowledge explanation that you gave 8 pages in - this might not have degenerated into a mishmash of half-points, ramblings, bitter retorts and comments dripping with arrogance and sarcasm. Part of me thinks that was never truly your intention...but since I'm no professional reader, I'm only guessing...

DrTodd wrote:And the role for the sitter in your work Paul? Is there dialogue and co-creation of the reading?

Absolutely. Although the degree of dialogue and co-creation is entirely dependent on the sitter. I've done readings for stoney faced folk determined not to give anything away as well as folk who sit down, open their mouths, and don't stop talking til they leave 20 minutes (or whatever) later.

Dialogue and co-creation is nice, but is by no means neccesary.

queen of clubs wrote:Have you ever read Thomas Harris, Craig? You seem to have a penchant for indulging what you imagine is a finely honed tool of perception in your long replies that I can't help feeling should be narrated in the voice of Hannibal Lecter.

You start off by calling me arrogant and then go on to explain that because I can't bring myself to believe in the paranormal then there is something wrong with me, but not only that, also you know how to help me "fix" my problem. Who's the arrogant one here?

I was interested that you asked of me "...please don't come back with the cliche line of "I don't have to do Heroin to know it what it will do..." or some such." and don't worry, I wouldn't dream of it, in this instance it would be a very clunky retort. I'll give you a much better analogy instead:

An atheist goes to a happy-clappy Christian website and says "I'm an atheist but I'd like to know what you people believe". After all the different points of view have been trotted out she is still an atheist. She is then accused of being closed minded by one of the most happy-clappy of the regulars - let's call him, I dunno, Greg Downing - who tells her that her opinion is arrogant and that the only way she can REALLY, TRULY understand the Good News is if she accepts Christ as her Lord and Saviour and proclaims Him to be the King of Kings. "But I'm an atheist" she says, confused and ever so slightly amused.

Wrong, wrong and wrong... I'm not trying to get you to believe in anything... just open your mind a little... but true to the cynic's nature, you want to twist the issue off yourself... that's the last thing cynics want to be forced to look at.

Oh well, I tried but as the old saying goes, you can only lead the horse to the water...

I've been in the magic business for the better part of my life. Long enough to know of Craig Browing and Mark Lewis long before I ever joined this board, (although neither would recognize me). So I know for a fact that they are who they say the are. If I didn't I would probably read the posts and roll my eyes because I too am a pretty hard core non believer. But I respect both men and their work, (if not always the way the deliver their posts) so I read, and I read. And I read the posts of others that I've grown to respect because of the posts here and on other threads.

I've never done a reading per sey one because in truth I really never believed, and more honestly, (and sadly) I really don't care, (I've pretty much had it with people) I do use Kneppers cold reading techinque in every day life.

Now I question myself, why don't I believe? Can't be the simple sway of an arugment because I'm far to stubborn for that. Perhaps it is because much of the words ring true in various posts. I've always figured that 'readers' forgive me if that is an incorrect term were simply therapists without a license. The better the therapist the better the reader, and yes I still cling to that. However I am willing now to accept that perhaps there is a little more too it. It is deeper then the cards or the position of the planets. No I don't think there is mystical power there but there is power in the mind. There is power in representation and there is power in belief.

If nothing else I'm still skeptical but not to the foolhardy point where I refuse to listen, and perhaps accept

So thanks.

There was an argument somewhere on this thread about palmistry...

Everyone says it horseshit, and some people say "it's a good tool".

I found myself in possesion of a book on palmistry - indicating exactly what all the lines meant.
It was very interesting to find that i too received the same (roughly) 90% accuracy rate that Paul enjoys using nothing more than the EXACT WORDS that were in the book.
there was no cold reading - there was nothing coming from me, just me reading out exactly what was in the book.

Got me thinking mind you.


What happens if we eat too much chocolate or fast food?
We get fat.

So what happens if x, y or z happens to our neurology.
To me , it's not COMPLETELY impossible that this could have some bearing on how the lines on our palms look.

Mind you - getting 90% whilst reading from a book is hardly definitive proof, but certainly something that could be worth looking into

themagicwand wrote:

DrTodd wrote:And the role for the sitter in your work Paul? Is there dialogue and co-creation of the reading?

Absolutely. Although the degree of dialogue and co-creation is entirely dependent on the sitter. I've done readings for stoney faced folk determined not to give anything away as well as folk who sit down, open their mouths, and don't stop talking til they leave 20 minutes (or whatever) later.

Dialogue and co-creation is nice, but is by no means neccesary.

Thank you.

this is only talking about unethical mediums/readers here, but a true story to bear in mind if anyone is thinking of dabbling with cold reading and going far too far...

a "medium" was entertaining a client, she asked about her dead husband...

the medium said "Oh yeah, he's here with me now, he says to tell you how much he still loves you and hasnt forgotten you..."

later that day, that woman slit her wrists - thankfully her daughter found her in time...what this unethical medium/reader hadn't taken into account was that this lady had infact divorced her husband, and they hadnt spoken for quite some time before he died...so she was wracked with guilt and decided to "join him"....

that's an extreme, and shows how dangerous cold-reading (for want of a better term) can be in the hands of the unethical and morally corrupt person...

HOWEVER!

i know people who have people like mr.wand for their parties and just want some form of esoteric and fun ENTERTAINMENT...they do not live their lives by the tarot, but enjoy it for that evening and that's that...

if framed correctly, and most importantly, ethically and morally - tarot and readings can be either:
fun
interesting
theraputic
self-induced therapy
expensive!
cheap!
free!
and probably quite a few things inbetween...

you have also, however skeptical or cynical a being you choose to be, HAVE to accept that some people get value out of it. And, inversley to the first example i gave, quite a few people have recieved "closure" over losing those dear to them. It boils down to belief systems...which very rarely can you change...

Again, i hark back to previous posts, that whatever gets you through the night brothers and sisters...be it hard nosed skepticism, beer, drugs, kebabs, porn, ANYTHING!

i don't know anyone who hasnt got a little foible or crutch to lean on every know and again...i do...some people cant admit that to themselves though...

again, this is from a free-minded atheist skeptic...cynic is a different kettle of fish...

it's like calling a psychic a medium...completely different...

anyway - for those that want to try a fun experiment, try this:

get a pack of cards, shuffle them up and stop whenever it feels right
ask yourself a question about the next week...
deal off the top 3 cards
clubs: social
hearts: love
diamonds: money
spades: work
ace - 1, king - 13
imagine it a sliding scale, 1 is lowest...

so if i got 10 clubs, 3 hearts and 2 spades
i would translate that as i'd have quite a busy social life, plus a little bit of flirting and work thrown into the mix...

this is for a little giggle that is all...extremely basic cartomancy..hardly rocket science...

in some ways, i'd of thought those hard-lined atheists would enjoy the idea of the random cutting/shuffling of cards to create something out of it...

surely that's what the big bang was? one big riffle shuffle and a pass...wallop here's your universe you were merely thinking of earlier!

Im a complete sceptic and I have no quarms saying so.. I believe in NOTHING supernatural...

yet... for example, I do not believe in ghosts>>

But I unmistakably saw my friend get his head kicked in by a poltergeist.

I saw a 'ghost' thing throw a wooden box my way on a building site..

and there was one time a 'white misty hand' grab my arm when there was no one around in at least 10 yards...


Still sceptic.. still dont believe.. but those things happened to me ( and my poor friend )

Now I wont rule out that maybe.. just maybe.. there is the slightest possibility that there is something in all this 'genuine pyschic' stuff.

I.D wrote:Im a complete sceptic and I have no quarms saying so.. I believe in NOTHING supernatural...

yet... for example, I do not believe in ghosts>>

But I unmistakably saw my friend get his head kicked in by a poltergeist.

I saw a 'ghost' thing throw a wooden box my way on a building site..

and there was one time a 'white misty hand' grab my arm when there was no one around in at least 10 yards...


Still sceptic.. still dont believe.. but those things happened to me ( and my poor friend )

Now I wont rule out that maybe.. just maybe.. there is the slightest possibility that there is something in all this 'genuine pyschic' stuff.

Surely a logical contradiction, then. It is like the phrase

'I don't believe in witches, but I know a few.'

I.D wrote:Im a complete sceptic and I have no quarms saying so.. I believe in NOTHING supernatural...

yet... for example, I do not believe in ghosts>>

But I unmistakably saw my friend get his head kicked in by a poltergeist.

I saw a 'ghost' thing throw a wooden box my way on a building site..

and there was one time a 'white misty hand' grab my arm when there was no one around in at least 10 yards...


Still sceptic.. still dont believe.. but those things happened to me ( and my poor friend )

Now I wont rule out that maybe.. just maybe.. there is the slightest possibility that there is something in all this 'genuine pyschic' stuff.

Actually this is much closer to how a "true" skeptic looks at things not this cynical cut & dry attitude others keep insisting on.

I explain it often, that I'm about 7% believer... I've simply seen and experienced far too many things that can't be explained away by so-called "Scientific" scrutiny. More importantly, I've encountered scenarios that I know for a fact no magic or special effects technician can replicate in the same exact manner as witnessed by my self and several other fairly well educated individuals. I've spent tons of time and money in trying to create a version of one encounter just to use on stage and it's proven darn near impossible to make happen.