talkmagic.co.uk

here's another look at my tuppence worth:

if you go and look into anything with a preconcieved notion, then that notion will very rarely change

be confident enough in your own belief system to listen to other belief systems - compare and contrast

if you do a fart in the middle of the night, and no one is around to hear it, have you really farted?

ah kwatsu...

and please dont forget, science and psychology has proven itself wrong, or minimalist at best in some of its thinking...

theres 4 character types...no wait! there's 8...no, hang on...16...no, sorry 21...etc...

there's also something to be said about fundamentalism, that for every person willing to blow up tubes, building and other humans...there's several thousand peace loving citizens who do otherwise...

i remember lenny bruce saying "You know why you all hate jews? it's because we killed Christ..."

if you look at that sentence, you can get many things out of those words...

as an aside, if anyone can tell me exactly what happened before the big bang and prove it, can they please - and in their own words too...ta..

all the best,
iain - atheist skeptic zen buddhist leaning type person with tourettes

I may regret this, but here goes. It seems that the question is of an ethical nature - are tarot cards an ethical way to present a clients potentials and possible pit-falls? IMHO- yes, they are.
I have no problem with Atheists, Satanists, Pagans, Christians,Jews, Hindu, Buddist, well- you get the idea because in each of our own minds- we are correct. I would be willing to bet that if I asked a religious person a specific question about an upcoming event & what I should do that they could take a bible & show me. By the same token I could ask an atheist the same question & probably get a different answer but one that is fesible, repeat with the Buddist, Hindu, and Pagan, and Tarot reader *Who may be Pagan or any other belief system* Each will have their own way of viewing the Universe and will answer in accordance with their belief system. (As long as they are educated in that system & not just wearing a label.) Then, I could ask a psychologist, a scientist, and a humanist the same question & still get another answer from their perspective. I am willing to bet that when those answers are laid side by side and examined that they will have more similarities than differences.
Which one is right? - All of them.
Which one applies to me? - The one that is most in unison with how I personally view the Universe and it's connections.
And if I follow the advice and my life is enriched by it then the result is that which I had hoped to obtain regardless of where it came from.
So, to sum up: Tarot cards have no power of their own.
However, a good reader could use Runes, cards, I-ching, or Numerology
and still give the advice that is most needed by the querrent. This is not because of the method, but because of the readers ability to understand how the querrent sees the Universe & respond accordingly.
The End.

queen of clubs wrote:

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Telling someone who makes a living out of "it", you think "it's" gobble-dee-gook, and expecting them to agree with you... is naive at best.

I don't follow you. Who did that? I'm the only one who blatantly said I think it's tosh, so I assume you're referring to me, but if you take care to read my posts accurately you'll see that I never even hinted at expecting any practitioner to agree with me. I can't stand it when I am misrepresented - although if you weren't referring to me then I apologise totally, and offer you my *rse to spank.

actually, I was talking about me AND you, AND anyone who raises this kind of issue with a working pro. In your opening post Kate, you tell everyone you think this is all "gobble-dee-gook", then you ask several pros to comment. What comment could one expect from them other than to defend their position? I am sure we wont get a "OK, I'm making it up and here's how I do it..."

I am not suggesting that anyone is "making it up" since I have no specific evidence of that. However, I think it is fair to say their answer must be a forgone conclusion, and for ANYONE to expect different is naive at best.

queen of clubs wrote:Tarot: The Truth Please

I am convinced there is nothing to Tarot that is other worldly, or mystic, or spooky - it's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's "real".

Just look at the title of YOUR thread here... "the TRUTH please". You state you are "searching" for truth, yet your initial post CLEARLY shows you have already made your mind up. So what exactly were you expecting from the Pros? The "other" truth?

It's not "all about you Kate", I am referring to anyone including myself.

It's not all about me??!! You mean to tell me I'm not the centre of the universe and when I walk it's not actually the ground moving below me as I stay in the same place??!! What nonsense!!

I'm afraid that I'll get flamed for this.. but personally I do believe that the tarot can (in the right hands) genuinely work.

It is interesting to me that so many magicians are quick to condemn such things out of hand.

Anywho just my tuppence.

Flash wrote:I'm afraid that I'll get flamed for this.. but personally I do believe that the tarot can (in the right hands) genuinely work.

It is interesting to me that so many magicians are quick to condemn such things out of hand.

Anywho just my tuppence.

Stephan Minch, one of my primary heroes and early influences when it comes to mentalism, referred to it as being Magician's Ego in that "we" don't want to admit that there's something out there we don't understand or can't replicate or explain away... most failing to accept the fact that being able to "replicate" isn't explaining what happened, you've just replicated the manifestation... THAT'S OUR FREAK'N JOB! MAGICIANS MAKE THE IMPOSSIBLE REAL!

It amazes me how many of "us" are so smart that we don't believe in anything supernal, divine or otherworldly and yet we're too damned stupid to figure out something as obvious as our job description.

What frightens me in this instance Flash... is you're developing a Zoological Tarot Deck in which Myrtle is the High Priestess...

Actually I am amazed at how many magicians DO believe in psychic stuff. When I was first struck by lightning and the clouds opened and gave me psychic ability I assumed that magician were all disbelievers. It was quite a shock to me to find that so many of them weren't.

as someone with a scientific background, and formerly an avid reader of cosmology and astro-physics, i agree for the most part with what you have said. however, i also believe as do many, that there is a creator (god, nature, cosmological constant call it what you will). the existance of one has been shown many times (though not an old chap with a beard who made everything in a week ), as well as scientific analogies throughout the torah, bible, koran and so on....

that said religious people who talk to this as some physical or magical being, are as far as im concerned free to delude themselves as much as they like.

POINT: its all a matter of personal opinion and interpretation. for the most part anyway...

i also believe in psychic ability, and related fields which have been studied scientifically. please note... science ISNT about nerds pooh-poohing everything. nor is it people who refuse to believe, its about furthering understanding at an incredibly complex level how everything happens, what changes occur, etc to build theories which lead to better understanding.

for instance, psychics, far from being a meta-physical puzzle, has been studied and confirmed... just the equations arent done (scientists love numbers ), so its still not 'scientific fact'. thats the only difference.

as the old quote goes... 'if a scientist says somethings impossible hes almost always wrong, if he says anything is possible hes almost certainly right'... forget who said that, einstein, rutherford, some famous scientist anyway. just shows though, science isnt a closed mind. but some will only stick to what they know.

anyone heard of peter hurkos/van der hurk? if not you should. his autobiography is a personal favourite

as for the tarot....

a set of cards printed in a factory (without witchdoctors making any incantations) with pictures on, given vague meanings which apply to 99% of people which are interpreted individually according to circumstance or a specific question, shuffled by someone (like any normal deck)....

you see where im going with this. yes a bit of hocus pocus, with some applied psychology thrown in... if its real theres no need for the pictures, you might as well use any deck.

humans naturally seek out answers, especially in advance, so they can prepare.

sorry but i fail to see how any mysticism or psychic ability can be given to the tarot, unless of course theres a f***e s****le involved


that said (especially the applied psychology bit) i use a tarot deck for some effects. people all know what it means and it adds to the magic

oh and for the record im with abraxus as regards the majority of psychology. and id throw sociology in with the tarot too.

Mention of Peter Hurkos prompts me to observe that the gentleman who ordained me into the Free Spiritualist Church was a great friend of Hurkos. He told me great stories about him. He sounded quite a character.

For example he would say to a waitress in a restaurant, "Your father abused you when you were a child, didn't he?" When the flustered and astonished waitress agreed Peter would get very upset and angry and start shouting so the whole place would hear. "He is a dirty son of a bitch!"
Even after the waitress departed Hurkos would scream after her "The dirty son of a bitch will rot in hell!" He would get astonished looks from the whole restaurant.

It seems that you couldn't take Peter anywhere.

if that story is true mr.lewis - then he sounds like an absolute t**t to me..

just like that. he was hired by police forces world wide, and studied by scientists who confirmed his very shocking abilities. a former member of the dutch resistance, he acquired this unique skill after an accident. he went on to become a private reader, entertainer and from what my dutch friends say, a national treasure.

he had an amazing ability to touch things and know about owners, or events, as well as you say merely meet someone and blurt things out (like he did to a former unknown nazi collaborator at a private reading at the latters home).

definitely worth googling

joel

definitely worth googling

I did just that, and it seems to me that he was also a very good publicist (or liar depending on your point of view).

Blurting things out was a speciality of Peter's it seems. Temperamental chap.

The person who told me all about him was the late very Reverend Nelson Guyette of the Free Spiritualist Church and he was the chap who ordained me. He told me that I would get hotel discounts because I was a man of the cloth and it rather tempted me.

Nelson was almost as much a character as Peter himself. I asked Nelson if Hurkos was cold reading and he stammered and stuttered in confusion as if he was shocked that I actually knew what the term meant. He looked here, there and everywhere and finally spluttered , "No. Of course not!"

However his body language and confusion did make me wonder a trifle.

OK, I know I will be stepping someone on their toes, but lets get real!

As you might know Magician and skeptic James Randi has a prize of $ 1.000.000 to anyone who under reasonable control conditions can demonstrate a super natural phenomena. This also applies to reading tarot cards.

A gifted mentalist (fortune teller) can easily fool people into believing something supernatural and strange is taking place. The mentalist Ian Rowland has demonstrated such skills on national television and has written a number of good books on the topic e.g. "The Full Facts Book of Cold Reading". The truth is that no one under reasonable control conditions has been able to demonstrate anything "supernatural".

If reading tarot cards worked it would be against the general scientific world view scientist have buildup over 100s of years of experiments and analysis. If you (or some of your magic friends) think otherwise I suggest you first

1) demonstrate the new phenomena, publish the result and get the Nobel Prize

2) Claim the $1.000.000 prize from James Randi

After, having won these prices your celebrity status combined with your special gift for reading tarot cards would undoubtedly make you an extremely influential person who might get good chances to run for president.

If you (or some of your friends) can do what is often claimed, why not come forward and claim the prize? If you are to modest to run for president I suggest that you ten-fold the fees for your shows.

PS. Don't forget to send me a modest fee for my advise