talkmagic.co.uk

Oh no. Not Randi. That's it. I'm outta here.

Soren Riis wrote:OK, I know I will be stepping someone on their toes, but lets get real!

As you might know Magician and skeptic James Randi has a prize of $ 1.000.000 to anyone who under reasonable control conditions can demonstrate a super natural phenomena. This also applies to reading tarot cards.

Ok...you said "let's get real" and then you bring up the Randi con-game?

The one that every time someone proves him wrong he don't walk, he runs away and ignores them (as documented on camera more than a few times).

The "Challenge" in which Randi has the last word (who admits he's no scientist)

Don't take my word for it, let's see what a legitimate and respected researcher said about it.
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/controversies/Auerbach_Randi.htm

A gifted mentalist (fortune teller) can easily fool people into believing something supernatural and strange is taking place. The mentalist Ian Rowland has demonstrated such skills on national television and has written a number of good books on the topic e.g. "The Full Facts Book of Cold Reading". The truth is that no one under reasonable control conditions has been able to demonstrate anything "supernatural".

True but not true... I'll start with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAI-pdyS8IU&NR=1


The "Full Facts" book is FULL OF ASSUMPTION as well in that Mr. Rowland never actually made his living exclusively as a Reader. In his own words, he was a cynic trying to learn the ins and outs but then that's what Randi said when he failed as a Reader in his past life and discovered how much press and cash he could get for being a jerk and Atheism's top Evangelist.

If reading tarot cards worked it would be against the general scientific world view scientist have buildup over 100s of years of experiments and analysis. If you (or some of your magic friends) think otherwise I suggest you first

1) demonstrate the new phenomena, publish the result and get the Nobel Prize

2) Claim the $1.000.000 prize from James Randi

After, having won these prices your celebrity status combined with your special gift for reading tarot cards would undoubtedly make you an extremely influential person who might get good chances to run for president.

If you (or some of your friends) can do what is often claimed, why not come forward and claim the prize? If you are to modest to run for president I suggest that you ten-fold the fees for your shows.

For starters the Randi Challenge is bunk and has no genuine/legitimate substance according to most lawyers and investigators that have looked into it. It's a PR scam that DOES NOT HAVE a million dollars in cash available for direct pay out... given Randi's past association with art thieves and known con-men (hiding from authorities, no at the time) I'd have to be a real idiot to think him honest at any level let alone giving him credit for some sense of integrity.

As a reminder, we are talking about a man who was invited to depart his native soil -- DISOWNED -- mainly for being a problem child... speaking of children... there is a reason why he's been FORCED to move and lay low upon more than a few occasions as well... so please, let's not bring up "Saint" Randi in that he's not one and the Million Dollars is about as real as flying pigs.


One Important Point that must be brought out however... You used reference to "Super Natural Powers" several times in your post and the fact is, those who are deeply vested into study of the paranormal and mystical DO NOT CLAIM to have any kind of "power" for starters and secondly, though some colorful names and fantastic descriptions can be found around much of it, there are reasons... the real truth however, is that NOTHING is outside of nature... that's an impossibility in that all things are subject to natural law, cycle and course i.e. PHYSICS!

The lofty names and deliberate airs of fantasy sewn into esoteric materials was originally placed there so as to conceal the truth and keep the foolish and gullible from readily finding what was and how it is supposed to be. The shaman, gurus, mystics and oracles deliberately planted misinformation as a means of filtering out those who were not "genuine". This is well known within occult circles but gets conveniently ignored when it comes to the attack of cynics and (sorry) those of low mind who want to sustain the idea that it really does come about as the result of crystals, living a pure life, et al. Though a truth exists within the idea of such discipline, the real "secret" tends to elude both, student and critic.

Let's not lower the quality of this thread (as seems to be happening in the past page or so). More importantly, let's not prove to the world what we don't know by invoking the myth that is the JREF's biggest joke -- the Challenge.

themagicwand wrote:Oh no. Not Randi. That's it. I'm outta here.

Maybe I should follow your lead

I rather like Randi. He is a most amusing chap and a great showman. I met him once at a railway station and he was running around like a demented hen because the person who was supposed to pick him up didn't. He was most unfriendly to me until I mentioned that I was a psychic.

He was delighted to hear it and he cheered up immensely. His eyes twinked and he whispered conspiratiorally, "Shh! We cannot be seen together!"

However I agree with Reverend Browning. The challenge is indeed a load of tosh.

I see that Soren is full of tosh too. He knows as much about the psychic world as he does about presenting card magic properly. I had to educate him in one field. It appears that I shall have to educate him again in another.

The Tarot is REAL. I thought I had explained how it works already. I do wish these foreigners would pay attention.

And don't bring up scientists to me and their studies. As a result of their studies they also thought that Uri Geller could bend spoons. That goes to show how daft they all are.

And to quote that Ian Rowland personage amuses me greatly. The chap is an impertinent pup who once sold svengali decks for me. He told everyone that if they purchased a pack they would win a free holiday in Northern Ireland. This was at the height of the bombing campaign. I should have sent Ian there instead.

Again I agree with Reverend Browning. The Rowland book is full of tosh and the author has never done a paid reading in his life. He only talks about how he THINKS psychic readings are done. However he is like those scientists that do studies. He got it all wrong.

I have already explained how psychic ability works. Nobody has commented on this historical piece of information that I have given you.
I suggest Soren and other sundry sceptics go and study the post again. It is on this thread amongst all the tosh and all he has to do is seek and he will find.

mark lewis wrote:
I see that Soren is full of tosh too. He knows as much about the psychic world as he does about presenting card magic properly. I had to educate him in one field.

We never met and I am pretty sure that you were never in the audience when I performed. You seem to confuse me for someone else.

As for the libelous slander of Mr. Randi I would not give too much credit to a parapsychologist and ghost hunter. Had I been Mr. Randi I would also have run away if the encounter was as described by Mr. Auerback.

I spent (wasted) considerable time of my youth investigating and reading about parapsychology. I was very open to it, but the more I learned the more I realized that the advocates often had a personal and vested interest in twisting the truth. I am sorry but big words and slander do not persuade me.

When that is said I am 100% in support of psychic entertainment. I am for example a great fan of lots of the stuff Derren Brown is doing. I also appreciate that he has hit a reasonable balance between making an outright disclaimer (which I think just undermines part of the entertainment value) and pretending the illusions are real (which maybe is OK in a performance, but somewhat odd if done to fellow magicians).

Today hardly anyone believes that the magicians magic is real. People know that however impressive the magic it is somehow a trick.
One great advantage in mentalism is that there are still quite a lot of people who believe that mentalists somehow might have some real mystical powers (like people used to believe in the magicians powers).

This is a MAGIC and Mentalist site. Lets not dilute ourself. Magic as well as mentalism is all about creating illusions. OK maybe my last sentence is exposure and should be moved to the secret section

Some times our illusion can be EXTREMELY powerful. Sometimes, we might even surprise ourselves how we managed to perform an evening where virtually all our mental forces went straight through.

In the secret section we discuss and give advise on HOW various illusions are best achieved. If you believe in "real magic" this is the wrong forum.

Can anyone point me in the direction of this so called 'truth' about psychic phenomena/ghosts etc. The name of studies, videos/photos of ghosts etc would be appreciated, or perhaps a prediction here or someone tell me somethings they could not possibly know. If needing to see proof before believing in everything from psychics to flower fairy new age healing makes me a cynic (or worse), then I'll wear that badge with pride.

the Randi thing is bunkum (ironically) you used to be able to read on the site - whatever people wanted to be tested on, they gave the parameters on which they could work..and Randi would change them...

but its all fun and games in the first place - you used to be able to read what these people's powers are, some were interesting, some highly amusing and delusional...

good for getting the brain ticking for effects mind you...

As for the libelous slander of Mr. Randi

My dear boy, it's only Libel when it's a known lie, not when there are supporting facts. For an example, the whole Pedophile issue around Mr. R has numerous tangible points, known of payola (so as to silence parents, lawyers, accusers) and court records to boot... I happen to have copies of the transcripts directly off Randi's home phone that a few folks here have seen and read, revealing Mr. R's amorous attitude towards teen-aged boys... so please, if you want to believe there are no Fairies in the world that's fine but just because they hide in a closet and behind various modes of obfuscation does not mean they aren't real...

I would not give to much credit to a parapsychologist and ghost hunter.

This is one of the reasons we see a constant back & forth between know-it-all magic buffs and EXPERIENCED professionals that work within the Psychic/New Age markets. You don't want to give credit to anyone, regardless of their pedigree, credit for knowing how to add 2+2 if it validates, at any level, the possibility of the paranormal/magickle and surreal... that includes Quantum Physics... Randi himself rumored to have threatened (with physical violence) a Nobel Winning Physicist because of his work in that area and how it opens a huge door towards such potential, even sustaining much of the "language" tied to esoteric sciences and how it parallels 21st century discoveries/validation.

Had I been Mr. Randi I would also have run away if the encounter was as described by Mr. Auerback.

Randi has run off in a tantrum in more than the one situation Loyd describes. Memory serving me right, he threw a tantrum on a Dick Cavette TV spot when "the panel" disagreed with his supposed findings on a psychic subject he was testing live and outside his so-called "legit" test conditions.

I spend (waisted) considerable time of my youth investigating and reading about parapsychology.

Ok... aside from all the books and articles you read how many circles have you stood in, sweat lodges have you sat in, fasts have you participated in and oracles have you studied and used day in and day out over a number of years... keeping notes and paying honest attention to what you learned, what was revealed in your experiences (visions, readings, etc.) ????

I'd be willing to bet that most of what you did was read and that the majority of your reading was already biased on the issue. Secondly I'd bet that you never invested into any of the formal studies... even within legitimate academics (many noted colleges now offer courses/degrees in Parapsychology)

the more I learned the more I realized that the advocates often had a personal and vested interest in twisting the truth.

And Randi don't have a personal sense of gain via the JREF... a "tax exempt" non-profit cult that supports him as head guru and chief bottle washer?

When that is said I am 100% in support of psychic entertainment. I am for example a great fan of lots of the stuff Derren Brown is doing. I also appreciate that he has hit a reasonable balance between making an outright disclaimer (which I think just undermine part of the entertainment value) and pretending the illusions are real (which maybe is OK in a performance, but somewhat odd if done to fellow magicians).

Fact "A" -- Derren is an admitted skeptic and even a bit atheistic in his points of view, one of the reasons his and Ian's contributions have infected so many young minds with similar points of view. Fact "B" the mode in which Derren presents things (as you've outlined) is quite close to how "true" mentalism is presented -- no or very subtle disclaimer -- not this up front admitting that you're a fake up front and anyone that believes in anything is a fool ala. Penn & Teller or Jamie Ian Swiss, etc.

Today hardly anyone believes that the magicians magic is real. People know that however impressive the magic it is somehow is a trick.

No! Say it's not so!

If you've ever listened to a Lee Earle tape or lecture on this topic you will hear him echo what's been fact for decades; Magic is an agreement between performer and audience that tricks are involved and every things is for make believe and fun. There is no intent to deceive via the invocation of belief but rather the suspension there of. In Mentalism however, the performer solicits a psychological investment from the audience e.g. we have the suspension of disbelief.

One great advantage in mentalism is that there is still quite a lot of people who believe that mentalists somehow might have some real mystical powers (like people used to believe in the magicians powers).

Firstly, there is no such thing as "Power" or "Powers"... that is a deliberately misused set of terms that are applied to the paranormal and things "Psychic" when the adepts will tell you that they are "abilities" and/or "skills" (usually a combination of the two). Secondly, as I pointed out in the aforementioned, BELIEF is the goal of the Mentalist. It's not the same goal of those doing Mental Magic in that what they do and how they present it remains obviously a trick... Mentalism leads folks to ponder the possibility by offering plausibility be it NLP, Psychological Influences, or having been Abducted by ET & Co. and probed.

This is a MAGIC and Mentalist site. Lets not dilute ourself. Magic as well as mentalism is all about creating illusions. OK maybe my last sentence is exposure and should be moved to the secret section

Hmmm... trying to wrap my head around that one... how I would "Dilute" myself... I know I'm supposed to drink lots of water but...

If you mean "Delude" however, I'm nowhere near that state and I can assure you none of my associates here who actually have experience in doing this work are either... we may be certifiably nuts but that's part of the job.

The Magician creates many effects or "illusions" the Mentalist on the other hand, like the Hypnotist, has but one single illusion he/she must create in a flawless and near perfect manner -- the Who & What they are perceived as being; WE ARE THE ILLUSION it has nothing to do with the tests, effects, experiments or demonstrations it is our knowledge base, our sense of authority and proven track records be it a working resume or simple testimonials by the laity.

Some times our illusion can be EXTREMELY powerful. Sometimes, we might even surprise ourself how we managed to perform an evening where virtually all our mental forces went straight through.

Actually I find myself amazed how most people make it through whatever it is they call an "act":roll:

In the secret section we discuss and give advise on HOW various illusions best are achieved. If you believe in "real magic" this is the wrong forum.

Actually, if you don't believe in Magic you shouldn't be here to begin with. Why do you even call what you do "Magic" or yourself a "Magician" if there is no such thing?

Don't give me the famed, "We are but actors playing a part..." line in that 99% of us have never had a single acting lesson nor do we pay attention to the words of experience when it comes to getting a professionally worked out script, professionally worked out choreography/stage movement, character coaching & development a director and even someone that can tend to the business side of things while we perfect our role within the craft.

I know what you wish to imply and I also know that part of why you are saying such things is that you loathe the idea that people in this world have the guts to believe in something fantastic that is for them, real as well as logical. Believe me, it takes far more savvy and confidence to be a person of faith than it takes to be a pseudo-intellect regurgitating the same exact lines magicians and cynics have been barfing up for the past five or six generations if not longer. The instant you're handed one mode of proof it's no longer enough, you need more... More is your favorite mantra outside of Prove it to me In short, there will never exist sufficient data to cure your need to not believe but that does not mean you have the right to slander or harass those who have seen and experienced more than enough to stand tall in their testimony of such things.

Intellectualism does not instant require someone to become an Atheist, nor does the act of taking magic on as a hobby or trade.

I have heard these pedophile rumours for years about Randi but I am not convinced about them. If they were true why isn't he in jail?

Incidentally that old misery Thomas Baxter (Entity on the magic cafe) makes a spirited defence of Randi regarding this matter on the magic cafe. Although I have been bickering with Tom for over 30 years -I don't like him and he doesn't like me-I think on this occasion he has it right.

Character assassination is a terrible thing and I am not comfortable with it.

Back to Tarot, I am, as you may have gathered, taking up a bit of Tarot Reading, purely for entertainment and fun. I think no matter how strong some of the people here argue, it will never change my opinion.

But anyway! A quick point is, from what I can see, even if the readers have no special gift or whatever, they rank highly in my books just for being able to memorise it all! There seems like an infinate amount of combinations and meanings!

Craig, in some posts you talk about all the proof there is to support these claims (again it would be great to be told where to find these reports, photos, fils etc), and i your last post you talked about being a...

to be a person of faith

...which means that no proof is necessary.

Actually, if you don't believe in Magic you shouldn't be here to begin with. Why do you even call what you do "Magic" or yourself a "Magician" if there is no such thing?

So can you do real magic?

Good golly miss molly...

I think something must've changed in the Matrix because I'm sure I've read almost this entire thread many times on this forum before. hmmm...

Skeptics and believers really won't agree, why? Because their life experience is different and they have different agendas.

Try persuading a devout christian that there is no god, see where you get. Now try persuading a skeptic that psychic phenomena is real and you'll probably get a similar response. Or the flip side is to persuade pschic phenomona is nonsense to someone who believes in it... Guess what? Snap.

Belief is a strong thing and here people are attacking each others beliefs. So the result becomes ridiculous.

Are we all going to see eye to eye on this? Probably not. So why don't we stop this before it gets out of hand (again).

As Mr Wild Card rightly stated "Back to tarot"...

I did a reading for someone a few days ago.

I offered a disclaimer at the beginning (but only saying that I personally was not psychic, not that psychic abilities don't exist).

Afterwards I was chatting with the person when he came out with the most random question ever.

"So - when did you figure out you were psychic?"


All else aside - am I the only one who thinks that Tarot readers and Psychics are two COMPLETELY different things??

Most definately Ecko! You can read Tarot after intense study, and give great advice, that doesn't mean your psychic, just well read!

My brother visited a lady recently, who is a psychic, hypnotist, therapist, everything under the sun-ist, as he has a phoabia of burns/burning. She said to him "You are the most psychic child I have ever met!"

Lucky ol' him! I'ma stick to my Tarot. I am actually really enjoying it, all this Major and Minor is starting to stick now!

here's an experiment - i've just mixed the major arcana 3 times, and drew out 3 cards on mr. randi's behalf...

emperor, empress and death...in that order...

psychic readers! start your mental engines!

what does this mean for mr. randi?