talkmagic.co.uk

Craig,
that's why I posted in the "ghost" thread, about just how good that thread was. Seems as if people are willing to be open minded there. The difference is, THAT subject is being discussed, rather than preconceived attacks.

queen of clubs wrote:
I'm not sure how you can write an illustrated guide to mysteries, since as soon as you did they would no longer be mysteries

Everyone! Look at Kate's superior intellgence!

Oh come on people, this started out as a really interesting thread let's not let it sink down into another bickering match!

We all have to remember that we all have different beliefs, it's not fair to push your beliefs on to other people or to belittle their beliefs.

Lets all play nicely huh?

Shut up Lady of Mystery you big poopy pants!!

Only joking

Yeah I was quite pleasantly surprised to see that this thread lasted so long without any blatant bickering so please lets not spoil it after so many good discussions.

On a brighter note- I am intrigued now about Tarot now, there seems to be more to it than I originally thought. I'll probably not become a true believer but at least I'll give it a go. It'll make for an interesting read if nothing else.

Try everything once etc etc.

themagicwand wrote:

queen of clubs wrote:
I'm not sure how you can write an illustrated guide to mysteries, since as soon as you did they would no longer be mysteries

Everyone! Look at Kate's superior intellgence!

I don't know what's eating away at you and Browning that you keep going on about how I've got some sort of superiority complex just because I happen to profoundly disagree with you. Is psycho-analysing and negatively diagnosing me the only way you can feel comfortable with someone who doesn't believe the things you believe?

I'm perfectly comfortable with those who disagree with me and I wish everyone would just calm down. I say a lot of things in a blunt way, but I always do it with a pinch of salt and a wink - I think sometimes people get the idea I'm trying to be genuinely vicious or something.

I'm with Lommy here, let's just talk about the Tarot. And make more use of the winking face smiley so people know when we're kidding not attacking.

And, Darrell, how dare you suggest I don't have a sense of humour?! I read Craig's essays, don't I?

Reverend Browning. You must forgive the young lady for she knows not what she does. You must remember that she is from Yorkshire and they are a terribly blunt people from that part of the world.

Forgive her and she will see the light. Whatever you do don't tell her how much money can be made from the Tarot. Since she is from Yorkshire where the populace have a great liking for money (since they never seem to spend any) you will find that her scepticism will vanish immediately and she will set up doing paid readings before you know it.

I once read that there is more money in soothsaying than there is in truthsaying although I took great exception to the observation. However I can tell this young woman from the wilds of South Yorkshire will take no exception whatever to the concept.

It is ironic that we have probably given her a future career as a tarot reader.

Don't get your hopes up though that you will be able to sell her your products though. I can tell that neither of us will get a shilling out of her.

Some time ago, I went on a similar quest. Is it "real"? As a result I came to the following conclusions:

(1) I have decided what I think "it" is.

(2) Telling someone who makes a living out of "it", you think "it's" gobble-dee-gook, and expecting them to agree with you... is naive at best.

A couple of years ago, I was watching a Derren Brown show on TV. My mom who was over for dinner paused to watch for a moment before saying, "is he gay?" [not that there's anything wrong with that].

Naturally I replied, [paraphrasing my own comments]. "are you kidding? I bet he uses his techniques to get to know thousands of pretty girls to varying degrees of intimacy."

So, is my mother psychic (in the Hollywood sense)? or does she simply have a more heightened level of intuition than I do? You be the judge.

Imagine if a person with a heightened level of intuition, sat in front of someone, (knowing that "someone" was likely there to learn of love, health or money) and after spending a little time chatting, that person with that heightened level of intuition, was directly exposed to that "someone's" every reaction as each card was turned. Imagine if the "reader" had studied this process for many years and had done 100's and 100's of such readings.

I suspect the reader could reveal numerous details that the spectator was not directly conscious of.

Hocus Pokus? Gobble-dee-gook? magical? spiritual? psychic? real?

All depends on your own perspective I gue$$.

Lady of Mystery wrote:...We all have to remember that we all have different beliefs, it's not fair to push your beliefs on to other people or to belittle their beliefs...

Amen to that. And amen again.

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Telling someone who makes a living out of "it", you think "it's" gobble-dee-gook, and expecting them to agree with you... is naive at best.

I don't follow you. Who did that? I'm the only one who blatantly said I think it's tosh, so I assume you're referring to me, but if you take care to read my posts accurately you'll see that I never even hinted at expecting any practitioner to agree with me. I can't stand it when I am misrepresented - although if you weren't referring to me then I apologise totally, and offer you my *rse to spank.

queen of clubs wrote:

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Telling someone who makes a living out of "it", you think "it's" gobble-dee-gook, and expecting them to agree with you... is naive at best.

I don't follow you. Who did that? I'm the only one who blatantly said I think it's tosh, so I assume you're referring to me, but if you take care to read my posts accurately you'll see that I never even hinted at expecting any practitioner to agree with me. I can't stand it when I am misrepresented - although if you weren't referring to me then I apologise totally, and offer you my *rse to spank.

Firstly, as one who has been taken way outside his original meaning or implication in a post, let me say that I more than understand where you're coming from. Sadly for folks that tend to be blunt and host that droll humor either of us seem to share, the internet can be a curse... it takes a long while for folks to get to know that you're "frank" but not in a manner that may be seen as "vicious"... then again, (as you've felt) I can extend my claws

Your curse is very much akin to my own, you call a spade a spade based on how you see things. The problem is, you likewise contradict yourself by (such as what got me into this mess) suggesting that the only "intelligent" people you wanted to hear from where those you knew of that would more or less side with you and your points of view -- the known cynics of this forum.

Ignorants played a big part in how folks view you as well and why so many have extended their talons in a scratchy manner towards you; by that I'm referring to the fact that TM caters to an exceptionally high level of folks who actually work in the "trenches" of the Mentalists world, doing Readings, Home Parties and all the "low" level stuff that the superstars avoid (for the most part) and which stands outside the "norm" of traditional show biz... the perspective of how things are supposed to be based on a "magicians" point of view.

Not realizing that brought about your stepping on more than a few toes and in my case, one very big foot in that I'm probably one of the most protective people you'll find in any magic forum when it comes to people's religious/spiritual beliefs and their right to have them as well as the legitimacy that surrounds our work as Readers. In other words, you shook a hornets nest and peeed-off the queen bee.

I think many of us read your post quite accurately and now that you've been backed into a bit of a corner, you're trying to tame things down and lighten everyone's view when it comes to your callousness and superior attitude set within most all of your replies up to this page.

I have absolutely no problem with genuine Skeptics... I fairly good friends with some of the more noted ones out there such as Banachek and Rick Maue... we agree to disagree and at the same time, we are able to discuss "theory" when it comes to the "How to" side of things without it creating a chasm in our relationship... and trust me when I say that my big Irish mouth has stressed those bonds more than a few times given my distrust and dislike of a certain Mr. Randi and his pets Penn & Teller. Ironically, even Randi and I have had a few (very few) friendly exchanges over the years so when I am confronted by someone like you, who is young and rather inexperienced about life in general, who wants to attack something they really know little to nothing about... well, I really have few qualms about challenging them. It's not my trying to "convert" you, it's my attempt in trying to get you to let go of your cynicism and soften it a bit so you're more in the mode of healthy skepticism.

Sorry, but your attitude and how your compose your thoughts is what betray you and cause folks to think of you as being an arrogant spoilt child vs. the intelligent young lady you think yourself to be.

queen of clubs wrote:I'll definitely give it a read, although I'm not sure how you can write an illustrated guide to mysteries, since as soon as you did they would no longer be mysteries, but I'll give it a read.

I know you were joking, but mysteries are meant to be revealed and understood.

Just not to/by everyone.

Craig Browning wrote:[Y]ou [...] contradict yourself by suggesting that the only "intelligent" people you wanted to hear from where (sic) those you knew of that would more or less side with you and your points of view -- the known cynics of this forum.

If that's what you've concluded then I owe you an apology. I have not been a member of this forum long enough to know who were the known cynics, but I had a hunch as to who were the working professionals who might be able to answer my questions. That's why I named themagicwand, Tomo and The Wronged Reverend Mark Lewis in my original post.

I didn't exclude you because I knew you to be a "believer" (or whatever), it was because, although I knew you were a working pro, I thought you were primarily a stage illusionist - I was ignorant of the fact you also knew a lot about the Tarot.

It was never my intention to seek advice from people I "knew" would be on my side. In retrospect I should probably not have named anyone, but there you go. I wanted advice and facts from everyone who had greater experience than me (which, let's face it, would not be hard).

Craig Browning wrote:[N]ow that you've been backed into a bit of a corner, you're trying to tame things down and lighten everyone's view when it comes to your callousness and superior attitude set within most all of your replies up to this page.

No. I'm trying to calm things down because I respect this forum and I know it has fairly strict rules - I don't want to be in trouble with Mandrake for going too far, or for provoking someone else to go too far. Trust me, you don't have me in a corner.

Game of Tarot anyone? Hermits wild?

Dearie me. I suppose I had better explain what psychic ability is all about. But perhaps I did already. I can't remember.
However if you all wait a trifle I will explain to everyone what on earth it is all about.

Here you are. I posted this on various sceptic forums when I was bored and felt like stirring up trouble. They were too dense to see that it actually supported their position. However it will explain how psychic ability develops.
...........................................................................................................
I am afraid that people do not understand psychic ability. If I knew everything I could predict the Lotto. However that is NOT what psychic ability is for and is not the way it works. I have suggested in the past that sceptics define what they mean by "psychic". They never seem to be able to do so.

My definition is a trifle less spectacular and ludicrous than other psychic people. I would merely call it heightened intuition. When you do this kind of work you become very sharp indeed. The psychic stuff happens at a deep subconcious level and there is nothing whatever mysterious about it. We all have it but naturally someone who does it all the time has sharpened skills. I believe I know why it works too.

If someone sits down in front of me I know all about them within seconds without them saying a word. In fact I prefer them not to speak since I like the sound of my own voice and I know perfectly well if they start yapping to me I will never get rid of them.

Now how do I do this? I sense things. And 70% of the time I am correct. You can't expect 100%. This is not an exact science like mathematics.

And how do I sense things? At first I was not entirely sure but now I believe I know what is going on. It is all perfectly simple.

Things happen at a subliminal level. Let us assume someone comes into me ten years previously. That person has marital problems. They have a relative who is ill. They also have money problems. They work say in the legal profession.

In the reading they will manifest certain signs and behaviours. I will have no idea what they are. And it is a very hard thing to explain. It is more than body language although no doubt that is part of it. They will have a certain look and there will be a certain feel for the situation.

Over the next 10 years the psychic will see hundreds of different clients but they will all have variations of the same problems. In actual fact there are very few scenarios. Most people come because of love problems and there are only a few situations that come up all the time. Same with money. Health issues and work issues. There are probably no more than about 20 or so different scenarios that come up all the time. I haven't counted them but that is my estimate.

Now here is the interesting thing. Each person will manifest the same signs, micro expressions and body language that people in similar situations will do. Again and again and again. The psychic doesn't have to study these indications. Indeed most psychics may not even be aware of them. However they will pick them up subliminally and not even know that they are doing so.

So ten years later a similar client to the one the psychic saw 10 years ago comes in with an identical set of problems. Or at least some of the same problems. He or she will also give off the same indications that someone did 10 years ago. Psychics who are not as brilliant as myself will delude themselves that because they know the chap is a lawyer, has marital problems and money troubles they will assume that God has given them great and wondrous powers that are not available to the rest of humanity.

They do not realise why they know what they know. I believe that through having done thousands upon thousands of readings they are picking up on subliminal signs that are the same every time. So they call themselves psychic.

I do believe 100% in the Tarot cards. Not because I believe they have certain supernatural powers embedded in them. I do not believe in Jung's theory of synchronicity even if I knew what the hell it was. I believe that the cards come up at random. However for very logical reasons which I do not have the energy to explain they WILL help the psychic to tune in to the client's life. They simply help the intuition process that I have already explained.

I can always tell if a lawyer is sitting in front of me. It happens very rarely but when it does I always know it. I know when a journalist or nurse is sitting in front of me. I know when I have a businessman. I know when I have a cop coming in for a reading (much more common than you might think)

How do I know? Pure intuition and experience. Not psychic you may say? I don't care what you call it as long as the client is happy with what they have paid for. The sceptics don't pay my rent so their opinion doesn't really matter. I am only coming on here to amuse myself. Irritating people is a hobby of mine.

What I am talking about is nothing whatever to do with Sylvia Browne or the claptrap that TV mediums come out with. I am not into guessing games the way they are. I am not a psychic medium and I do not contact dead people.

I do know when a close friend or relative of my client has passed away because this certainly fits into the limited scenarios that comes up as I explained earlier. And I sense the signs of it even though I have never bothered to analyse what those signs are. I just know. However I never contact the person because I know perfectly well that I can't.

Many psychics are sincere people who unfortunately are hampered by belief. That is why they get some things right and some things wrong. Luckily for them most people forget the wrong things and concentrate on the right.

There are very few outright frauds in the psychic business except of course some of the TV mediums and the gypsy type psychics. However there are indeed gifted people who do not understand where their power comes from and consequently are prone to deluding themselves as to what is going on.

I must emphasise that I never try to analyse how people are reacting. I barely look at the client. I am concentrating on their palm or the tarot cards. I pick up their reactions at a subliminal level. It is interesting to note that the more tired I am the more accurate the readings are. That is because the logical analytical part of mind closes down and the "psychic" part (for want of a better word) sharpens up.

There. Now you know what it is all about.

I skim read that, and then decided it was actually quite interesting so read it all. Very....ermm..can't think of a word...interesting? But that sounds patronizing. I enjoyed it a lot, either way.

If someone sits down in front of me I know all about them within seconds without them saying a word. In fact I prefer them not to speak since I like the sound of my own voice and I know perfectly well if they start yapping to me I will never get rid of them.

That is hilarious/genius, my french teacher would say something similar.

He says things like, when asked if he has a pen..."Yes I do thanks."