talkmagic.co.uk

Point One: I believe you will see a little smiley demon on my comments on the card stuff WHEN TAKEN IN CONTEXT. I am a known non-supporter of playing card co-dependency and a firm believer that a 12-Step recovery program need be created around said addiction (and the obvious denial factor).

Point Two: I have stated numerous times that I can sit down and watch people like Martin Nash for hours on end, doing their card work. They make it an art but, as has been pointed out, it's not their tricks or skill as much as it is their personalities that make it a rare pleasure. Sadly the gross majority of hobbyists do not have this same level of charisma, let alone respect for their audience; they are more obsessed with showing off and placing themselves into the limelight with a "see what I can do" attitude and deluding themselves into believing it "entertainment" when it truth, it's magician's masturbation.

Point Three: All things are good in moderation. Even I do a few card routines every now and then, even in my shows. One of my favorite bits to do in a Seance is Mephisto's Journey, which happens to be a Card-based effect. So don't put me down for being a general NAZI towards card tricks, just someone that's been around this stuff for decades (just as Peter has) that knows first hand what "the establishment's" pov is on this topic; that's within magic circles as well as the laity.

Point Four: As I've pointed out numerous times, and this goes back to point number one, most supporters of card magic are akin to members of the American NRA and will argue till blue in the face their right to own and present card tricks no matter how many scream and yell to the contrary; and too, no one will get their deck until it is pried from the clutches of their cold dead hands.
...last I checked, this is proof positive that something is an addiction and not so healthy.

Magic Hobbyists tend to develop a codependency on playing cards because they are convenient, nominal in cost and you can accomplish a great deal with them... Muscle Reading is even more convenient and has no cost to it outside of the time to learn it and I happen to be one of the better "skilled" people in MR work but I can assure you, IT'S BORING when you present too much of it, even with the little caveats that can be sewn in. Like Cards MR requires hours of constant practice in order to keep your edge and on that level I can certainly understand why someone would be guarded and very protective when it comes to said passion and the personal investment made towards it. On the other hand, I'm a realist and as such I'm fully aware that the typical PAYING CLIENT rarely gives a rat's patutty; they are contracting you to ENTERTAIN their guests not to show off the latest neat moves you just learned.

Even when I was working clubs and doing nothing but Close-up I never found a reason to know or do more than about six standard card effects. I was once embarrassed over that fact, only to have Eugene Burger explain to me that it was more important to have six card routines you do exceptionally well than 100 that you can only half-azz... In addition he pointed out that even the full time card guys rarely do more than a dozen bits in their acts, rarely ever changing the act though they may develop something new for teasing the guys at the club.

IN CLOSING: I have to echo what Peter & PC said earlier; your popularity in getting repeat gigs stems far more from your charisma of character than your skill with the pasteboard's... that, or just just cheap enough that the buyer's could car less... you fit their budget. I have found that it is typically the latter, given the plethora of "no talents" I've seen at low budget events.

I would suggest that all you card sharks read the introduction to Paul Brook's ALCHEMICAL TOOLS and do some honest meditation on what is shared and how it may just apply to you. Maybe ask yourself how a "Mentalist" got more out of a 30 minute version of Out of This World than the clown doing a dozen and one tricks. If you figure it out, you might just be able to grow up enough to better understand the position shared by the majority of old timers when it comes to this subject. Including, believe it or not, Dai Vernon himself... and I got that straight from the horses mouth.

Craig Browning wrote:when it truth, it's magician's masturbation.

Hehe, I like that expression- I think I'll make a mental note to use it more often in conversation

While I agree with the notion that too many magicians become too hung up on cards and can absolutely understand Craig's reasoning behind it, I disagree with such ridiculous comments of Peter's about how "fact is fact" when it comes to most people hating card tricks.

Naturally there are going to be a lot of awful card magicians because of its accessibility; that doesn't mean the fault lies with the card magic itself. Personally a lot of the material I perform with cards I perform because cards are the most appropriate medium, the most appropriate way of expressing the effect's theme.

Let me explain: one of my favourite effects involves having a card selected and signed by somebody. This is shuffled into the deck and from then on, I never touch it - it's entirely in my Participant's hands. They deal through the deck and, whenever their intuition directs them to do so, they stop on one card. They turn this card over themselves, with absolutely no interference from myself or anybody else - it is their selection. The deck is completely examinable and they keep their card.

Having performed this for years now I know that it is a very powerful demonstration - heck, a celebration - of my Participant's own intuitive faculties. The cards are simply the most convenient medium for displaying this. The reactions are a far cry from "pity applause".

Well, well and indeed...well.

I think it rather unbecoming to suggest that all card workers are boring. It's a little like saying i find some online vision contributors boring - so therefore ALL online vision contributors are boring. They are not.

Going through the motions, be it with cards, mentalism, even bizarrism can be insanely boring - its the persona, not the medium used.

"oh great! yet another so called spooky tale...tell me another dooooooo..."

I'd happily be entertained by Lennart green, lewis jones and a few others who present interesting and engaging plots and premise with cards. And im sure no one would dare suggest those people would perform 5 card tricks back to back all with "so take one, put it back....whooomph! and here it is!".

It's rather a limiting argument i think you'll find. And not realistic.

As with all stories and plots. Each effect must build upon the previous one. Leading people off up dead ends, with surprises and astonishment before the finale. That goes for cards, coins, rope and hey, while we're talking - even envelopes taken with a pinch of salt

I need only site Annemann, Scarne, Burger and Green - and i defy anyone to not want to hop into a tardis and not want to go and watch those men about their trade. Personalities can be entertaining or excruciating - from a professional to an amateur. Let's not tar all with the same brush please.

Let the flaming commence - but please, do not destroy the english language when you do so.

Duplicity wrote:I think it rather unbecoming to suggest that all card workers are boring.

Did I miss something? Who said that?

Peter Marucci wrote:Craig was 100 per cent spot on in his putdown of card tricks. They are, in general, horrible, the same, and the applause one gets for most of them is "pity applause".

'Nuf sed.

Not verbatim, but pretty much.

Duplicity... or is that Dualistic?

If you are going to try to use my words against me at least use my words. Nowhere and any of my previous post will you see me state such a black & white point. Please read what I actually wrote. I simply stated the most people that think cards are the epitome of magic DON'T LISTEN to their audiences and deliberately don't hear "the truth" Even non-magical publications like The New Yorker magazine have cartoon slams on magicians and card tricks, so there's a strong chance that PC, Peter, Myself and I'm certain a few other old dogs around here, aren't all that wrong in our statement. Then again, in the time I spent at the Magic Castle (several years of practically living there) I heard far too many moans over "not another bloody card trick... Please!"

However, such is not heard when someone like Max, Marin Nash, Ammar, or Johnny Thompson (yes, the Great Tomsoni) are doing their thing. They are both, engaging and near flawless in their work in that they have nothing to prove, which runs in stark contrast to the approach taken by the majority of "cardicians"

In the Mentalism realm the old timers strongly discourage the use of playing cards, promoting the idea of using some other sort of device for accomplishing the same basic thing such as Dan Baines did with Out of This World (and of course, those that followed on his coat tails with similar "variations" and routine themes). It's not because mentalism can't be done with playing cards, only that in using an alternative removes the thought from the mind of the laity that you may be cheating and the demonstration is "just another card trick"; something as simple as using Tarot Cards changes the perception and assumptions

Duplicity wrote:

Peter Marucci wrote:Craig was 100 per cent spot on in his putdown of card tricks. They are, in general, horrible, the same, and the applause one gets for most of them is "pity applause".

'Nuf sed.

Not verbatim, but pretty much.

I think the key words here are 'in general' and 'most of them'.

That in no way casts criticism on all card performers.

Pete

Renato writes, in part: ". . . one of my favourite effects involves . . ."

And therein lies the trouble with most card handlers: ". . . one of MY favorite. . ."

How about actually ENTERTAINING the audience and doing what THEY like the best!

pcwells sums it up perfectly, when he says I use the phrases "'in general' and 'most of them'."

There is a world of difference between card tricks and tricks with cards. The trouble is, most wannabe performers can only do card tricks!

It strikes me that the arguments against card magic could be copied and pasted exactly to form an argument against any other kind of magic, too. You could argue that coin magic is boring because all that happens is a coin vanishes and comes back somewhere else, etc., etc.

The most important point is of course that it's the persona of the performer that makes the magic engaging no matter what props are being used. I personally don't have an axe to grind either way. If someone wants to insist that card magic is boring and the majority of applause is pity applause then fine, I'll gladly carry on with my life in the knowledge it doesn't apply to me.

Actually I very rarely get applause - my audiences are more likely to just scream or stand there in amazed silence. And that's before I get out the cards...

Queenie...you're trying to split hares here (and no, that wasn't a type-o). Sure, you can cut & paste such words into other areas of magic... I've seen it done with Mentalism (long before the current trends) as well as escape work... I've even stated such and do sustain the fact that personality is the key that makes the difference. HOWEVER, you are not likely to see commercial publications that cater to the general public making fun of these other elements or if so, it is far more rare than you find them making fun of card tricks and the boorish (typically womanizing) magicians that think them so wonderful.

I understand that playing cards are part of some mysterious magician's religious movement (at least, it would seem) but just as I would challenge a Christian to defend their faith without that leather-bound suppository of theirs in hand, I challenge the typical magician to learn about actually being a magician without playing with their decks in public; oft times it seems nigh impossible for them to do.

Obviously you will not readily HEAR or choose to SEE what the truth is on this issue. I must stress that it is NOT my personal take on things, it is a known and well established public bias, you just have to remove the filters of your mind so at to become more aware of it; something most of us refuse to do, be it critique of our act or how patrons view our favorite routines. Do understand however, there is much, MUCH more to our world than you will be allowed to comprehend for as long as you retain your codependency on playing cards.

I usually back away from this kind of ' discussion ', but its Sunday afternoon and the pub isnt open yet.

Im sure someone's said it in this thread somewhere; that its all down to personal taste. The discussion here will forever go round in circles.

Paul Daniels, David Blaine, Derren Brown, Dai Vernon, Eugene Burger i can't be bothered to go on. The point is, they all dabble and indeed dabbled with cards. Of course they were/are special, and they had/have their own take on card magic. Good for them huh?

To say that laypeople are bored with cards is all kinds of wrong. Did someone do a worldwide survey on this? No-one asked me. I've baffled, and continue to baffle, people with card tricks. Just because an ACR is boring to a lot of magicians, its not to Eddie Punchclock down the road. To them it defies logic, reason, possibility, it is.......magic.
Some need to pull their head from their fundament and look at it from another angle.

' There is no question that a pack of playing cards opens a world of deception that allows the performer to present some wonderfully deceptive and intriguing effects that will and can entertain even the most difficult of audiences when handled correctly ' - Luke Jermay from Building Blocks. Quoted here with no permission whatsoever.

Feel free to rip my post apart like a group of ravenous vultures, i just heard the latch coming off the door at the local tavern.

Peter Marucci wrote:Renato writes, in part: ". . . one of my favourite effects involves . . ."

And therein lies the trouble with most card handlers: ". . . one of MY favorite. . ."

How about actually ENTERTAINING the audience and doing what THEY like the best!

pcwells sums it up perfectly, when he says I use the phrases "'in general' and 'most of them'."

There is a world of difference between card tricks and tricks with cards. The trouble is, most wannabe performers can only do card tricks!

Peter, why don't you read my post instead of making your usual assumptions?

It's one of my favourite effects BECAUSE of how strong it is and BECAUSE of how my audiences react to it.

The effect I quoted is anything but a simple trick with cards. Truth is, it's not even a trick.

So then, the vitriolic posts have died down. Apparently the hobbyists can be just as awful as the pro's can be. If they use cards that is.

Ultimately - this "discussion" is fairly pointless, as its now about "mosts" and "just about alls". So therefore, just an opinion (even though written as "a fact".).

When do you know that you've turned pro? When you can look down your nose at others i guess.

Duplicity wrote:When do you know that you've turned pro? When you can look down your nose at others i guess.