talkmagic.co.uk

Mjoel writes, in part: ". . . I was beginning to think nobody else cared about what really matters."

The reason for that is that most posters ARE "led by immature middle-schoolers who's only goals are to insult and put down their fellow magician as viciousely and quickly as possible, just because they have a different opinion than themselves."

Remember, the moderators can only do so much.

It's up the the individuals to make -- or break -- a forum.

Oh, BTW, welcome back.

mjoel wrote:I never said he was my idol, and your post now makes me worry about talk magic's maturity level as well.

Do understand that "Maturity" likewise means learning to deal with reality rather that being blinded by someone's invented success.

When it comes to that level of high profile recognition the performer becomes a "Product" being handled by "others"... he/she/they do not have the control at times, as to how things unfold or some of the events they get put into. In the case of Criss that first season of his discovery gave the world demonstration of routines he'd been working on and performing for over a decade. Then he was confronted with the unreal demand of creating a full season of brand new material he was not familiar with, that the bugs were not worked out, etc. Couple this with his immaturity and ego escalation and you begin to see how and why his image started to quickly slip in the mind of the older, more experienced performers... the "under 30" crowd remained his groupies for a bit longer (especially the females) due to the "Rock Star" persona he was attempting to project... but Criss is not Mic Jaggar and will never out do Iggy Pop.

Inferring that someone who disagrees with you is "Immature" is akin to looking at a mirror and pointing at your own reflection. My advice being to shatter that mirror for your own sake, retaining the magnifying aspect thereof, so you can take a deeper, more honest look at icons like Criss.

Back in the early 80s when Copperfield and I first started rubbing elbows I was told (and witnessed) about the horror stories his life was filled with; it was the last year of his contract with the people who basically owned him and like the Record Industry, the objective was to push him so hard that he'd crash & burn and not be able to recover without their help.

That might sound strange at first glance but if you are an investor and the "producer" of a touring show that's making you millions of dollars, you want your talent a bit desperate in the aftermath so that you have the upper hand when negotiations come along for a new contract. In DC's case, he simply sucked it up and did his own thing, proving that he could.

One of the "last straws" David had to deal with was a benefit show at the Magic Castle... he'd just landed the night before from China where he'd done well over 100 shows in a near non-stop flow of things. He was crisp, had less than two hours sleep and had to assemble the show without a crew... until I and two of the Castle Juniors jumped in and put things together for him while he caught some Z's in one of the dressing rooms... I more or less made him take the break; David knowing that I was more than capable of assembling things properly and insuring it would all function properly (I was a noted Techi and illusion dude in those days).

I've watched this same thing happen with Lance but I've also seen another common thing happen with both of these guys along side numerous others; ego and self-destruction. Something I'm intimately familiar with in that I was one of those falling stars that shot himself down very early in the game.

The Reason I Bring These Things Up is so you can better understand the perspective of a Matured Elder that's been around the block more than a few times. I do know the signs not to mention the fact that I am on more than a passing sense of rapport with several of the folks that were behind the scenes with Criss that RAN from his side as he became a bully and living down to the punk image he's embraced. Several of those he's alienated can quickly end a person's career in this business. In the case of Mr. Angel, they are simply letting him either destroy himself (which he's doing quite well at present) or wake up before it's too late, eat some humble pie and get back to being teachable, creative and resourceful as he was twenty years ago... that also means up-grading his image, accepting the fact that he's no long "the kid" who could get away with that look and attitude... he's moving into early days of middle age and it's time to start acting like it... but that would require a bit of maturity on his part, wouldn't it?


I do have to agree with something that's been said by several others here when it comes to the Angel Bashing... you have to look at the age group and what the average is with each forum. TM tends to have a heavier "over 35" level and even our younger members tend to have a more serious mind-set when it comes to honestly wanting to learn and/or improve their magic. We've had a recent rash of "children" flowing in which has lowered the IQ factor a touch, but that's happened before and we've always bounced back.

The Green Slime Pit is NOT a healthy world when it comes to the realities of this industry and sadly, it is one of the better known nesting grounds for Torrent (file share) practices and out and out bootlegging of products.

It all comes back to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory. Regular person + audience + anonymity = Dickwad. And the majority of the people on the internet are not here for civilized discussion. I don't know if you've ever heard of /b/ but forums are generally taking after that model, where everyone's anonymous, there are no rules and anyone who appeals for reason is very quickly beaten down.

Welcome to the internet. It will never, ever change.

I am new to internet forums, only discovering their existance a month ago. I joined three relating to magic. Two (including this one) have been fun. But one (I don't know if I am allowed to mention that it is The Magic Cafe) I found very frustrating. It had a very christian slant, and any dissenting view just got his posts deleted. When I questioned this I got a message from one of the moderators telling me that if I questioned the owner I would be banned. Anyone else have trouble there?
Thankfully none of that rubbish here - just friendly and (occasionally) robust debate. Hope you stick around and enjoy it.
By the way I hate Chris Angel, and think that David Blaine is a very talented stunt man, but little more. But I don't think anyone is immature for disagreeing with me. In fact I love people disagreeing with me. All the best.

Internet forums...

Here is my experience, any forum that is linked to a shop is for sure full of snot nosed rich kids who wont stay in magic long term and ruin it by being here now but thankfully they are keeping Brad Christian in fine clothing so we can all sleep better knowing that, the only one I posted on was Penguin and that was yeeeaarrrs ago, I quickly learned what to expect and left it.

Then I became a member of the Cafe... My God. Words cant describe that place. It really shows you how fickle magicians can be. It's full of arm chair experts who will flame at any given opportunity, or else you'll get the guys who will literally kiss ass and more to anyone that is selling a product or has some respect in the magic world, and all in the hope of getting something for free on there. If you dont fall into that slot of someone who has some book or something for sale, then your a nobody who will get flamed for having a slightly different view on anything.

The kiss assing and flaming on the Cafe quickly builds up cliques (or "clicks" whichever it is) and the place becomes a joke, because your wondering exactly what to say and how to say it... even worse... some of those cliques go all the way to the mod's who can be just as bad as the idiots posting there.

There can be some good discussions there but overall it's not worth it.

However the one thing I will say in its favor... twice I had made posts on the cafe about two well known products that were out on the market by very well known names, and on both occasions I got replies from the creators themselves and they were absolute gentlemen to have a conversation with. I said nothing bad about the products, instead I question why certain things were the way they were with the products (for example one had a very annoying patter).

Of course when the creators replied to me, the kiss asses were out in force with their compliments and "defending" the creators of the products. Pathetic. It really does highlight the theory madvillainy put forward. I'd never go back to that place.

I found Talk Magic through a friend and thankfully I observed it for awhile before signing up and found it to be a place of decent conversation and so far I haven't seen anyone who act's like any of the above. If I do I'll delete my account asap as life is too short to put up with that kinda stuff.

But welcome back to magic mjoel, let me know if there is anything I can help you with and PM any time.

TonyB wrote:By the way I hate Chris Angel, and think that David Blaine is a very talented stunt man, but little more. But I don't think anyone is immature for disagreeing with me. In fact I love people disagreeing with me. All the best.

What a load of twoddle.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm not a fan of Angel's work either. Big showpieces can work - Penn & Teller have been doing it for years - but I find his presentations rather patronizing. Things like the spectator-cam seem to be in the interest of fairness, but when he's acting as though he's turned a 6-year-old girl into a 21-year-old woman or that he's teleported a pair of people down a hotel corridor and presenting it completely down the line, I immediately tune out. Also, he should hire better stooges.

Agecroft wrote:Fluff a trick, no worries one of the other guys will come along and pick up the slack etc.... point you in the right direction of presentation, tell you to drop stuff that doesn't suit you, all the good stuff you sometimes need to hear.

I couldn't agree more. The community here is what makes it, and they couldn't be more helpful. I've had some great advice from the guys here, especially (but not only) the manchester guys

mjoel wrote:Ray, thank you very much for the welcome back, and I hope to get better as I focus more of my time on my magic, which like I say has been neglected for a while, unfortunately.

At least (from the responses I've gotten so far) it seems that this forum is still pretty resourceful and mature, so I think I'll stay awhile. I'm sure I'll enjoy my time here.

Would you say that this is my best bet in terms of quality online interaction with magicians? All the other forums seem to be just like the rest.

This seems to be a pretty good place.

They allow me into the mentalism section which is great, because that is what I like to do right now in my life.

I am not permitted into the magicians’ section yet, LOL … which is fine and I understand that they are screening people. It is their way of keeping out the brats and people who are better off on other forums. So I can’t really tell you about the magicians and how they talk to each other. But from the few sections that I can go, everyone seems that they are here to help each other.

What made you decide to come back to magic?


Ray

Ray Noble wrote:

mjoel wrote:Ray, thank you very much for the welcome back, and I hope to get better as I focus more of my time on my magic, which like I say has been neglected for a while, unfortunately.

At least (from the responses I've gotten so far) it seems that this forum is still pretty resourceful and mature, so I think I'll stay awhile. I'm sure I'll enjoy my time here.

Would you say that this is my best bet in terms of quality online interaction with magicians? All the other forums seem to be just like the rest.

This seems to be a pretty good place.

They allow me into the mentalism section which is great, because that is what I like to do right now in my life.

I am not permitted into the magicians’ section yet, LOL … which is fine and I understand that they are screening people. It is their way of keeping out the brats and people who are better off on other forums. So I can’t really tell you about the magicians and how they talk to each other. But from the few sections that I can go, everyone seems that they are here to help each other.

What made you decide to come back to magic?


Ray

Well, it really came down to watching the modern street magicians and realizing just how much I love the looks on spectators' faces whenever I would perform for them. I missed it terribly, and even though I'm not all that great, doing the magic for people really makes me feel better about life, if that makes any sense. It's the connection with the audience that makes it all worthwhile, and I had forgotten that somewhere along the line.

Welcome back to magic...

Something you'll find on TalkMagic which I *believe* is unique is the fact that although there are numerous biased opinions, you're more likely to find like-minded people on your own wavelength who you'll bond with.

The diversity of character here, coupled with the extensive knowledge of some members, is enough to keep TalkMagic the 'top of the pops' of magic fora.

Oh, and another thing: Although it may seem that TM doesn't offer as much 'freedom of speech' as some other forums (where people are constantly RABBITING on about things they have no knowledge of, or just to FLAME you in their COFFEE break), our moderators and 'staff' make sure that the place is refereed to a fair and public-facing level.

Simple rule of life: If you've got nothing to say, don't say anything.

This is by far the best forum i've found. So much knowledge, reviews are structured & arguments are kept to a minimum. Welcome & enjoy.

Russ

although we all fall foul of arguing on here, its best to remember that we all dissapear once we log out of this place...if some people want to be an *rse, let 'em...

meeting people, face to face, often dispells any ideas you have of them online...you often get out of a place like this, what you are willing to put in...

TonyB wrote:The Magic Cafe...Anyone else have trouble there?

Not trouble as such, but I once got lost for a few days when I dared to venture into the labyrithine forums, sub-forums and sub-sub-forums that make up the Cafe. Too many frickin' forums in that place. There are some good discussions, but I don't spend much time there. I'm leaving a trail of breadcrumbs next time....

TonyB wrote:I am new to internet forums, only discovering their existance a month ago. I joined three relating to magic. Two (including this one) have been fun. But one (I don't know if I am allowed to mention that it is The Magic Cafe) I found very frustrating. It had a very christian slant, and any dissenting view just got his posts deleted. When I questioned this I got a message from one of the moderators telling me that if I questioned the owner I would be banned. Anyone else have trouble there?
Thankfully none of that rubbish here - just friendly and (occasionally) robust debate. Hope you stick around and enjoy it.

An interesting fact about the green pit of swill...

The majority of people they boot off tend to be either Bizarrists or the more hard core, serious (old school) Mentalists... they've even had the audacity to give Banachek a hard time on a few instances... fortunately for Steve, Mr. Brooks & Company are the biggest brown nosers on the planet when it comes to VIP types.

Another interesting thing (for me, at least) is the number of people that have been booted for mentioning me or my products (along with all the "editing" by the censor team -- no such thing as "free speech" over there -- when it comes to reference to said odds & ends).

Maybe it has something to do with my pointing out to the world that the site is a safe haven for bootleggers, thieves and Torrent fans?

Then again, it could be due to my being able to actually freely share an opinion without fear of censorship and cowing down to old lard butt wants everyone to do in his cultish world.