talkmagic.co.uk

it goes back to my one and only sensible point of this discussion...there's lots of similarities between readers and religion...

just as there are ignorant and basically, inherently wicked self-obsessed and morally bankrupt readers and 'psychics'...there are some that are simply, not...

the same goes for anyone who follows any religion...

the regular nice people who believe in either have that sensation that there is more to life than just what we can see and prove scientifically...they just have that feeling that 'this' is part of a bigger truth too...

i've always thought the only commandment you need in life is "thou shalt not be a tit..."

It may seem like the most loving thing to encourage everyone to fanny around, explaining and developing their own personal ideologies/theologies... "I interact with God in my own way" etc. That's all well and good, but how often do you meet up with a group of 100 other people who interact with God in their own ways, and decide that you want to put on a free English course for struggling immigrant families?

Disassociation is the easy way out - trying to turn things around is harder, but necessary. Otherwise you get groups splitting off throughout the years... "I'm not with them", then when some other people disagree with the first splinter group, "I'm not with those guys either..." It's like people who sit on their @rses protesting against the actions of "the big wigs", "the man". How about, work hard, get into a position of authority and actually do something about it for goodness' sake!

~and~

I fully sympathise with those people he mentions - "followers of Jesus" - but really, they're not helping, they're wussing out. "I'm not one of the bad ones, I'm a nice one." Ahhh, bless 'em. Wouldn't we all like to say that? Which is why in my last post I mentioned that although some of the things done by the church are detestable, it has to take at least some ownership of all that.

Ok, I believe what I said has been side-stepped just a bit here and in its own way, ties in just one reason we have so many “versions” of the “one true path”… hell, Henry the VIII wasn’t the first to reinvent the Church to meet with his liking and was certainly not the last (just look at how things get twisted and manipulated over here by the “born again” politicians)

My example with the kids calling themselves “followers of Jesus” wasn’t to imply some kind of out-growth and new cult form but rather a manifestation of the disgust of those that have a testimony of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, etc over how man has screwed it all up, even giving greater import to the words of a many that never even knew the messiah over the man himself. I guess the better demonstration here is to say that these kids equate the term “Christian” to how black Americans relate to the famed “N” word.

Of course, when people don't really know what they believe, it's something very different - or if people feel they're struggling with what they believe.

There should never be a “struggle” to accept that which is of truth and thus “Natural” to the nature of humankind. When one struggles with “belief” it is typically due to the fact that they intuitively know something is amiss. Though this could related to their own life I know from first hand experience as well as discussions with many that when a person knows beyond the shadow of doubt that they have and are living a righteous life that is ethical, morally and humane that the flaw they are being made aware of stems from the cult in question and its claims as well as the dogma it seeks to impregnate the mind with.

No “true” religion requires the manipulation of emotion, fear, guilt or acts in which the clergy rule with an iron fist (even to the point of directly influencing nation laws and social agenda).

No “true” religion would have to stoop to the act of bearing deliberate false witness towards those they do not agree with or whom they find to conflict with their points of view; it would live by the example given the world by Jesus, Buddha (long before him), Confucius and a myriad of other great teachers throughout history. Even today the Buddhists prove by way of example, the wisdom of this particular tenet while an unusually high percentage of those absorbed by the Abrahamic faiths feel it justified to do the contrary.

Based on just this one issue alone it should be no surprise that a thinking and intelligent human being raised in a western European Christianized culture would find themselves at a bit of a cross roads when weighing right over might and proclaimed truth over manifested wisdom and proven acts on the greater whole, of kindness, mercy, charity and point blank practicing what one teaches so that by one’s example people are attracted to your “faith” rather than manipulated and hammered (be it physical or psychological) into compliance.

But when I meet people who say "I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church, and I think all other Christians are (this, that and the other), and..." I think, "MAN UP."

I agree 110% with you on this... and on several levels you are hitting the proverbial nail on the head.

I’d have to say at least 75% or more of those that consider themselves “Christians” (in this case) do so via osmosis and social assumption. This is especially true for those who are male and feel that their only obligation is to go to services on the high holy days but attend “church” on the weekends as the game comes on the television and the finger foods & Beer (a.k.a. Communion) are at the ready; let’s face it, sports and money are what most of the westernized world worship with sex falling in at a close third place.

Here in the States we find a huge number of “red necks” that call themselves “Christians” along similar lines but, like the Klu Klux Klan and American Skin Heads (even the NAZI Party) see themselves justified “in the name of god” and of course, according to the bible itself, to be racists, homophobes, woman beaters, physically & abusive (non-sexually) to their children and pets and worse. Most of these folks are cherry-pickers of the scripture and most are more inclined to embrace what they want to hear vs. what they are supposed to be learning. Sadly, many of these folks are lead by rather arrogant ministers, many of whom have an agenda be it business or politics (I know this as a matter of direct family reality via two uncles and a grandfather who would each sell off any one of their kids or wives if it was to their advantage; each of them a hard-as-nails Fire & Brimstone styled preacher/evangelist).

the church is a human and flawed institution with ugliness in it's history, but if inspirational and kind people get involved, it can get better

Agreed, sadly most ministers will even tell you that less than 10% of any church’s congregation PARTICIPATES and even attempts to be what it is they claim. It’s a sad as well as pathetic reality when it comes to that greater majority that expect everyone to live by the very guidelines they themselves refuse to embrace.

The Moral of the Story has to be that one must get their own house in order before tending to the disarray of others… to take the beam from one’s own eye before worrying about the splinter in the eye of your fellow… etc.



FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY I have to state that I’m not “Christian Bashing” in particular, they are just the best example most of us can relate to. The Islamic tradition has a similar pattern. Fortunately, this is not so much the case with the Jews in that they aren’t as inclined towards recruitment as the other two; theirs is more of the idea that they are “a people” or “race”, not some club you can just join for the sake of being a part (though some do).

Given their benevolent nature as we see them today, even the Buddhist have had their time in history in which corruption and inhumanity proved the course. But as we have seen with other cults over the eons, such antics come from the auspices of corrupt men who have fallen away from the original teaching. Fortunately for the Buddhists, the warrior-like attitudes got nipped in the bud and the bulk of their history has proven bloodless… other than that spilt by their own martyrs. This cannot be stated when it comes to Christianity or the auspices of Islam. Ironically, it can be sustained when it comes to those that practice genuine Satanism or any number of other “occult” traditions; other than those instances (which are very rare now days) in which a chicken or goat might be ritually sacrificed, you are not going to find the spilling of innocent blood or even the zealot spirit of converting others. Facts that add to those “questions” I put out earlier about how a “true” religion or course of faith might be perceived in the mind and heart of those who step away from the social & cultural expectations and implication, and actually study a bit as to what’s out there and what seems to best fit them.

As most know, I’ve played Mr. Mom to over ten kids over the years, the three primary belonging to my ex, Marcy. Of that trio one went back to the Mormon church; one is a Buddhist and the other holds to the Druid tradition that has been part of Marcy’s family line for some 8 (known of) generations now. The reason is simple; they were never forced to accept one thing over the other. We have a vast library of books relating to each tradition and encouraged them to learn about it all and come to THEIR OWN DECISION; it wasn’t up to us, as the parent figures, to dictate.

In my mind this is how it should be, but then I’m an optimist.