talkmagic.co.uk

My point is that there is a need for a festival. If you have a problem with atheists celebrating Christmas you ought by your own logic to have a problem with Christians celebrating Christmas.

Well, halloween isnt about witchcraft, so no...

it still boils down to this, if u have no faith, morally and ethically- you should not follow the crowd nor celebrate and take time off over christmas.

strictly speaking Christmas as we know it, is only about 150 years old.

Prior to the publication of a christmas Carol in 1843, it was a very much different festival observed by many, but not all.
Take the scene in the book right at theend. The young lad is sent to the local poltry shop to buy the goose in the window... He gets this. Meaning that the shop was open as usual for business.

the practice of closing for the whole holiday period, only came about in my life time.
This is now slowly dissapearig, because of the change in trading hours, and with the growth in international business on line.
though it should be noted that Globaly most countries dont trade on the 25th. Few trade on the 26th.

Why can you not reframe it and hijack it as it already has been?

Christmas for the most part is already a secular event due to the fact that very few people are real christians (I'm yet to meet one). Santa, christmas trees, mince pies, Slade, Turkey dinner, The great escape all have nowt to do with it.

I presume Iain will be going to church on Christmas day and drinking the blood of christ? Or will one be at work?

Anyway... This thread must of come about because film4 decided to show ELF two days ago, on the longest day of summer.

thats about as pagan as you can get

Penn Jillette tells this story about a friend of his who wears a Masonic ring. Within the Masons there is a very clear rule that states that only Masons can wear a Masonic ring so from the perspective of the Masons, his friend is breaking one of their rules. However... he isn't a Mason so he doesn't have to follow their rules therefore he can wear a Masonic ring as much as he wants. It's the same with the Islamic rule stating that you can't depict the Prophet. If you're a Muslim, there can be some pretty hefty prices to pay for this. If you aren't a Muslim, however, you can draw as many pictures of Mohammed as you like as you don't have to follow Islamic laws. Of course, current events show that some Muslims don't agree with that logic!

I'm not a Christian so I don't have to view Christmas as anything special. I therefore don't have to prove how much of an atheist I am by working at Christmas as I don't think a point, whether ethical, moral or faith-based, has to be proven. Just because Christians think Christmas is important, doesn't mean I have to ascribe any special meaning to it. I can work during it, or take time off during it, the same as any other faith based holiday. It's just more convenient for me to not work it and I like having the time off.

greedoniz wrote:
I mean...ghosts, goblins, bronze aged virgin births, giant bunny rabbits, tooth fairies

all utter fantasy but fun

Easy for you to say. Try walking a mile in my shoes.

try walking 2 foot in his socks

Well, I'm not a fundamental atheist...

and christians DO celebrate christmas as a religious event, so...

just saying that those that are, and are even quite anti religion, i believe that they should work over christmas, and not recognise it in any way. if it had never been thought of, or celebrated in a religious context-it would never have existed. so if you are not of that faith, dont celebrate it. simple.

the only problem with this theory is, give companys an inch, and they take a mile.
If you said, athiests, or people of a non christian faith should work on christmas... the compnays would insist that in the name of equality, everybody should work on christmas.

I have had 11 years, of having to work till midnight on new years eve, to make me realise that no matter how you choose to celebrate, some days should be off days for all.

you get people working christmas, the next thing that falls is the bank holiday.

before you know it, we all work 365 days without a break.
stress levels go up... voilent crime follows..

anyways, in our game, christmas is always a very lucrative time of the year. If people have to go to work the next day, they dont party.. and close up magicians and mentalists loose out on a ton of bookings.

Depends if you're a size 8


A long time ago there were these Pagans and they had many many gods such as H.B God of pencils and Floretta the goddess of salads and every year around mid winter they had a festival where everyone got very drunk, gave presents, ate lots and sat around watching a gap in the room where the tv should be.
Anyway one day some Romans came along who whilst conquering the lands of the pagans showed them that there wasn't loads of gods but instead was one fella with a beard who is also his own son who was nailed to some 2 by 4's.
Because these Romans were trying to get away from the whole "pagan" thing as they thought it was all a bit old hat they told the Pagans you can't celebrate any birthdays ( a pagan thing) or sun type things.

Now being the sort of people who like a really good party the Pagans were not having it as they'd already bought in the chocolate log and the 2 for £20 boxes of Becks. So the romans said, ok you downsized your Gods to one and we'll let you have your party as long as we can make it the birthday of a Carpenter but it cannot be the Skinny one called Karen.

So the party went ahead.

Now over time the annual party ebbed and flowed with some years too many sprouts were eaten and in between times people learnt to read and learn about the natural world and thought that going from many Gods to one although was a good idea didn't quite go far enough but hey we still like a party dont we.
So a secret deal was made that if the Romans didn't meantion the pagan thing during Christmas then the secularists wont mention the other peeps too.

So the romans said, ok you downsized your Gods to one and we'll let you have your party as long as we can make it the birthday of a Carpenter but it cannot be the Skinny one called Karen.

Harry?

I like the pagan thing. I'm allowed to celebrate Yuletide. The rest of you - get to work.

The supermarket near us actually opens on Christmas Day 10am - 3pm. Apparently they do get people coming in to buy inane things like bananas and Zoo magazine. People are indeed odd.

IAIN wrote:just saying that those that are, and are even quite anti religion, i believe that they should work over christmas, and not recognise it in any way. if it had never been thought of, or celebrated in a religious context-it would never have existed. so if you are not of that faith, dont celebrate it. simple.

You can still take time off at Christmas without celebrating though. I've got some holiday time coming up in about 2 weeks- I'm going to paint my living room. I'm not going to celebrate painting my living room though. It's just something that's going to happen whilst I'm not at work.

Iain, I take it you also think Christians shouldn't eat shell-fish, wear mixed fibres or talk to women on their period? After all, clearly all belief systems are a black and white set of rules with no room for change or integration.

Unless, of course, there is the possibility that people are complex and intelligent enough to share in the celebration of something they do not believe in as it brings them closer to their friends and family?