talkmagic.co.uk

by **themagicwand** » Jun 24th, '10, 11:48

I have a serious question. It has troubled me for some years, andwonder if any of the Christians on this forum can answer it for me.

The God in the Old Testament and the God in the New Testament act like they're two completely different deities!!! What's the deal? In the Old Testament He's very angry, running around laying waste to whole cities and killing children. In the new Testament it's all love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek etc. Are you positive they're even the same God???

And also, can I express my dissatisfaction with a God that thinks it's okay to kill children vis Passover. Very shoddy behaviour in my book. Not to be endorsed or worshipped in any way.

by **greedoniz** » Jun 24th, '10, 11:59

...but the water into wine thing is a great hit at parties.

they never really reported on his ability to turn a large rock into a karaoke player and the arrival of scantily clad Shepherds daughters...Coooor get in!

by **themagicwand** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:06

greedoniz wrote: the arrival of scantily clad Shepherds daughters...Coooor get in!

I think that was more Pan's realm. He's on the Pagan team.

by **greedoniz** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:12

Also does this overall point of the thread have bearing on Christians and athiests alike not being able to use the current names for the days of the week?
Not so sure the Saxon Gods are so highly regarded thesedays

by **IAIN** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:15

Serendipity wrote:Iain, I take it you also think Christians shouldn't eat shell-fish, wear mixed fibres or talk to women on their period? After all, clearly all belief systems are a black and white set of rules with no room for change or integration.

Unless, of course, there is the possibility that people are complex and intelligent enough to share in the celebration of something they do not believe in as it brings them closer to their friends and family?

Though, does one need the excuse of a religious festival to do that?

by **Lawrence** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:26

IAIN wrote:Though, does one need the excuse of a religious festival to do that?

Apparently so, though I find most non religious annual events also work.
At least that's what the wife tells me.

by **Serendipity** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:27

Not at all, but why would I go out of my way to avoid my christian family members at xmas just to arrange some other time to see them that more fitted my beliefs?

A further thought - would you take your shoes off if you were walking round a mosque?

by **greedoniz** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:28

Points from the "non believers should not celebrate religious or previously religious festivals" side that are still not answered:

1) Christians and athiests alike not being able to use the current names for the days of the week?

2) Christians shouldn't eat shell-fish, wear mixed fibres or talk to women on their period?

3) I'm not a Christian so I don't have to view Christmas as anything special. I therefore don't have to prove how much of an atheist I am by working at Christmas as I don't think a point, whether ethical, moral or faith-based, has to be proven.

4) The fact that the religion it celebrates has changed over the years suggests that it has always been about the festival; the religion is, as you rightly say, an excuse.

Oooo can I also add that fundamentalist athiest is probably a poor term in the same way that being a fundamentalist non astrologer is too

by **IAIN** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:38

A J Irving wrote:I'm not a Christian so I don't have to view Christmas as anything special. I therefore don't have to prove how much of an atheist I am by working at Christmas as I don't think a point, whether ethical, moral or faith-based, has to be proven. Just because Christians think Christmas is important, doesn't mean I have to ascribe any special meaning to it. I can work during it, or take time off during it, the same as any other faith based holiday. It's just more convenient for me to not work it and I like having the time off.

its not about proof as such, more that - you are atheist, therefore god does not exist, so you should not recognise the festivals/holidays in the same way as your religious friends do...if you believe that no god exists, therefore, surely - neither do the holidays...otherwise, it is, as you stated a little hypocritical and could potentially demean any religious points you may make...

its like being vegan and wearing leather shoes...

by **Mr_Grue** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:42

IAIN wrote:...you are atheist, therefore god does not exist, so you should not recognise the festivals/holidays in the same way as your religious friends do...

We don't.

by **IAIN** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:50

greedoniz wrote:Points from the "non believers should not celebrate religious or previously religious festivals" side that are still not answered:

1) Christians and athiests alike not being able to use the current names for the days of the week? this is a weak question - the days of the week are set in stone and are a commonly used descriptive term to signify different days - we cannot ignore that fact...though we can choose to ignore christmas if we so wish...

2) Christians shouldn't eat shell-fish, wear mixed fibres or talk to women on their period? what has this got to do with my initial question - that is what I'm discussing, please start another thread if you wish to discuss those topics...i am trying to debate with people whether atheists should work over christmas, and generally ignore all religious festivals/holidays...

3) I'm not a Christian so I don't have to view Christmas as anything special. I therefore don't have to prove how much of an atheist I am by working at Christmas as I don't think a point, whether ethical, moral or faith-based, has to be proven. its not about making a point, but put simply - if you believe that there is no god, by that definition, therefore you should hold no truck with any god's religious holidays either...therefore, logically - do you not think that you should work over christmas?

4) The fact that the religion it celebrates has changed over the years suggests that it has always been about the festival; the religion is, as you rightly say, an excuse. regardless of what some people define christmas as now - its roots, its intrinsic nature is about god/jebus/virgin mary and all that jazz...therefore, it is religious

Oooo can I also add that fundamentalist athiest is probably a poor term in the same way that being a fundamentalist non astrologer is too
who has ever used the term non-astrologer? again, thats a weak argument/point...I'm a non-nuclear physicist? the term i used was fundamental atheist, to describe people who are both atheist but also very dismissive/anti religion too, though i admit it is a wording of my own choosing...I'm not trying to start a religion with it or anything

by **IAIN** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:51

Mr_Grue wrote:
IAIN wrote:...you are atheist, therefore god does not exist, so you should not recognise the festivals/holidays in the same way as your religious friends do...

We don't.

then don't take the time off and celebrate christmas?

by **Robbie** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:52

IAIN wrote:if you believe that no god exists, therefore, surely - neither do the holidays.

Ah, but the holidays DO exist in our western culture. There's no getting around that. Even an avowed atheist has to admit that they exist as days marked by the general culture as different from the rest of the year.

If you don't acknowledge Christmas as a holy day, and don't even use it as an excuse to celebrate the existence of friends and family or the cycle of the seasons, you'll still have to take note of its existence in some way because it impinges into all areas of everyday life.

EDIT - ADDITIONAL: Whether you work or not during (Christian) holidays is surely between you and your employer? If your place of work shuts down for the holidays, as many do, then it seems plain bloody-minded to complain about the time off.

If an employer is scouting around for volunteers to work during the holiday period, then an atheist (or any non-Christian) should be quite willing to do so. He should certainly receive the equivalent time off as leave days, of course. Taking extra pay might be slightly hypocritical, but you can hardly blame him if it's on offer. I'd be far more irked at somebody who refused to accept extra pay on principle, especially if it caused trouble for other people to make the exception.

The same applies for working on Sundays.

The only thing that would bother me is inconsistency. If you say you're a devout pagan and want to celebrate the sacred Spring Equinox, fine, but then you can't very well claim Easter as a holy day.

by **Lawrence** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:54

IAIN wrote:4) The fact that the religion it celebrates has changed over the years suggests that it has always been about the festival; the religion is, as you rightly say, an excuse. regardless of what some people define christmas as now - its roots, its intrinsic nature is about god/jebus/virgin mary and all that jazz...therefore, it is religious

Does that mean my Yo-Yo is still technically a weapon?

by **greedoniz** » Jun 24th, '10, 12:54

By the way my translation of "Christmas" is different to everyone elses as I think it is incorrect and it allows me to carry on regardless :twisted:

talkmagic.co.uk

should they?

Who is online