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well, technically no sam, we weren't...

atheists taking time off because its christmas, despite it being (contrary to other definitions) a religious holiday in its truest meaning...

you could say, that atheists have hijacked christmas, which makes them in some ways - the same as christians who hijacked the pagan celebrations in the first place...

*Skip to the bottom for the short version of this. It's pretty rambly.

I suggest that beliefs in general are not necessarily the most rational of things. Atheism for some people is a belief, the belief that there is no higher being. For others it might not be, simply the lack of belief in a higher being. There's an important distinction there somewhere, possibly. Ergo I don't need to be rational in my beliefs and importantly I have no need to justify them to anyone. But why the heck not...

Anywho, for me the big chrimbo is a welcome brief break in the year in which I get to catch up with all my friends and family who happen to be back home because everyone else happens to be back home. Getting that organised otherwise is essentially impossible except at funerals and weddings.

An analogy for me goes as follows:
I don't believe that aeroplanes can fly. I simply don't believe it. They are giant hunks of metal with comparitively small wings. I know that they do fly, and accepting modern physics and mathematics as darn good representations of the tangible world around us I can even proove it. Should my lack of belief in them stop me using them? No. Should the huge amounts of fuel they use stop me? Probably, but that's another story.

*Short version: I am atheist but I choose to celebrate Christmas in a similar way to that I have since the age of 0 - being with friends, family, food and presents. Why? Who cares. Not me.

IAIN wrote:well, technically no sam, we weren't...

atheists taking time off because its christmas, despite it being (contrary to other definitions) a religious holiday in its truest meaning...

you could say, that atheists have hijacked christmas, which makes them in some ways - the same as christians who hijacked the pagan celebrations in the first place...

Yes, but to atheists it is not a religious hiliday- although that may be acknowledged by them- it is just a holiday.
Anyway, whats with your hating on people getting drunk and having a good time? I think anybody opposed to people putting aside their differences and finding an oasis from drab daily life to be with people they love, are the one's who have problems. No offense.

And technically Iain- America is a terrorist state. That is not my opinion- it is a simple matter of reading their own definition of it and then reading a little history. And we're just as bad for helping. It is a complex issue, I could talk about for years upon years.

My post sounds a little cold, and im sorry for that, its not you Iain. poverty, for example. I just do not like (to put it mildly) America and American society.

how the hell did we get onto America? (apart from boats when shipped a load of people over there)...

maybe you have something you need to get off your chest in some way Sam...

also - why bring hate into this? i didn't mention that word in any way...merely asking questions and putting forward theories...

My post sounds a little cold, and im sorry for that, its not you Iain. poverty, for example. I just do not like (to put it mildly) America and American society.

though - obviously not that sorry - as you are conciously aware of sounding a little cold but are choosing to not do anything about that chosen behaviour...hmmmm....

try and relax sam, don't take most of what i say on this forum too seriously...unless we're talking mentalism then obviously i'll skin you and roll you in salt if i ever hear you dissing annemann

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:
I thought you were asking why his attitude changed not why he gets away with it.
.

Yes, sorry, I was really. Just got up on my high horse for a moment!

No, it was the change in attitude that has always perplexed me. Maybe the Jewish God and the Father of Jesus are two separate identities and we've just plain got it wrong all these years. Perhaps Jesus's dad was really Odin!

EDIT: Not that Odin was particularly known for turning the other cheek and loving his neighbour. Bacchus! Now there's my kind of god!

IAIN wrote:how the hell did we get onto America? (apart from boats when shipped a load of people over there)...

maybe you have something you need to get off your chest in some way Sam...

also - why bring hate into this? i didn't mention that word in any way...merely asking questions and putting forward theories...

My post sounds a little cold, and im sorry for that, its not you Iain. poverty, for example. I just do not like (to put it mildly) America and American society.

though - obviously not that sorry - as you are conciously aware of sounding a little cold but are choosing to not do anything about that chosen behaviour...hmmmm....

try and relax sam, don't take most of what i say on this forum too seriously...unless we're talking mentalism then obviously i'll skin you and roll you in salt if i ever hear you dissing annemann

Yeah.. sorry, wasn't having a great time. Whos Annman?

themagicwand wrote:Perhaps Jesus's dad was really Odin!

If anything I'd say Jesus is a sun god, (think son of god). Steeple's are simply modern day obelisk's (which were giant stone cocks 'erected' for sun worship.) Jesus is often depicted with a halo of gold behind his head, and he 'rises again' in the Spring. Also go into any old Christian church look around and you will find, usually displayed quite prominently, an image of the sun. So Ra became Yah became Yahweh became Jehovah.

Incidentally I know I'm drifting way off topic when I say this but it is a funny story. I knew a girl at drama collage who told me that she didn't hate gay people, they were just against her religion (Christianity). I pointed out to her that the biblical referencees againsed homosexuality was in the Old testament and she should ignore it because it was pre-Christ. She said, her exact words; 'Christ has nothing to do with Christianity.'
You just can't make this s*** up.

I think we're getting off topic now- 'should atheists celebrate Christmas?'

Who's move was it?

I'm not a christian, but I do celebrate Christmas. However in my mind I'm celebrating Yuletide and the pagan roots of it all, which is where my religious bias tends to lean. The holly and the ivy, the yuletide log, a bearded elf delivering goodies, a good ghost story...

I guess we need to define what we mean by 'celebrate'.

For me, Christmas seems to involve me driving various relatives around from house to house so I can't have a drink, then being forced to eat more food than I'm really comfortable with, before finally sitting bored in front of terrible, uninspiring christmas themed tv and watching everybody struggle through a half-assed board game whilst staring at the clock wondering when everyone is leaving so I can go back to doing stuff that I want to do. Does this count as celebrating?

ah, we've slightly moved away from the original question now...

here we go again -

you believe that there is no god
therefore - no god, no holy book, nothing of that ilk
christmas - though has changed i admit, is still, within its own natural context, a religion based celebration - and though christianity in this country is on the decline, many people do give thanks to god, and celebrate the birth of christ and all the things that "christmas" entails...
so, if you do not believe in that god, then by definition, you should not take that time off work
i say this because if you do celebrate christmas, yet are atheist, then you are being hypocritical and not sticking to the atheist belief too welll...

as said before - its like a vegan wearing leather shoes...

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:Incidentally I know I'm drifting way off topic when I say this but it is a funny story. I knew a girl at drama collage who told me that she didn't hate gay people, they were just against her religion (Christianity). I pointed out to her that the biblical referencees againsed homosexuality was in the Old testament and she should ignore it because it was pre-Christ. She said, her exact words; 'Christ has nothing to do with Christianity.'
You just can't make this s*** up.

I remember a kid in my RE class at school who used Herod's murder of the babies as an example of Christians having a less than blameless history. I pointed out that Jesus was a baby at the time and, therefore, Christianity did not yet exist.

I celebrate having a few days off work to spend with the family rather than anything else. It's a public holiday, remember, so I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. If there is then all non-pagans should go to work on the May bank holiday.

Ted wrote:
I celebrate having a few days off work to spend with the family rather than anything else. It's a public holiday, remember, so I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. If there is then all non-pagans should go to work on the May bank holiday.

Except of course the May bank holiday isn't just a pagan celebration- it's also a christian holiday, and more importantly for this discussion, International Workers Day/Labour Day. Just because it originally was a religious holiday, it doesn't mean it still is one.

On a similar note, the same could be said for St Patrick's day. Should only people who can prove that they have Irish ancestors be allowed to celebrate it? And of course by celebrate, I mean drink Guinness and wear stupid hats. My answer is no. It's an excuse, like Christmas and all other holidays, to have some time off and enjoy life. If you'd rather put your religious or lack of religious beliefs before having a good time, then you are an idiot. Religion really isn't that important.

At least to me it isn't.

I don't think Christmas has to be religious at all, yes it's based around a Christian festival but how many people really think about the religious side of it? How many people got to church? For most people it's a time to get together with friends and family and have a good time.

I come from quite a diverse family when it comes to religion, my grandparents were Muslim so is one of my brothers and nephews. I've got my own ideas on things with everyone else not really having any strong belief. But we always celebrate Christmas together because as I said before, it's a good time when everyone can get together and jsut have a good time. Sould I not see my brother or buy the children pressents at that time of year because they're Muslim?

Ted wrote: all non-pagans should go to work on the May bank holiday.

Yes, those pesky workers appropriating what was a lovely May king & queen crowning pagan-fest! Down with the workers I say, and up with the May poles!