talkmagic.co.uk

My RE teacher was a right laugh. He didn't believe a word of it, but he could weave a compelling story. He told us all about crucifixion, how it's done, how it kills you, how long it takes to die. And best of all, what they did to speed up your demise with a big rock on a pole. Brilliant bloke.

If we're still talking about Christmas, when did it become a legitimate part of a company's business plan that we all buy utter toss - and re-buy it every year? Jobs are lost if we don't, it seems, and yet I don't remember it becoming law that I have to buy a Santa hat.

i just think atheists are letting the side down by celebrating christmas...and that they shouldnt tell their kids that santa exists, nor the tooth fairy or the easter bunny-wunny...

or do atheists think that false belief is ok? i suppose ultimately - I'm saying i don't know where atheism begins or ends...it seems as though a lot of atheists almost laugh at, or mock people who do choose to believe in something...yet the same atheists believe let their own beliefs slide when it suits them...so should we even take atheists seriously when they pick and choose when it boils down to it?

there is a strong element, on the rise, where atheists become quite vocal and anti-religion..yet, those same people usually believe in luck, or at least refer to it...they also don't mind taking time off in december (cos everyone else does)...it befuddles me that people can be very critical, yet say they are basing their values on logic - but...

they still let their kids believe in santa, they still take a week or so off at christmas...and so on...

and as for aliens, well...logisitcally (and I'm backed up by dr. hawking here) that probability wise - aliens do exist...so can we say that all atheists believe in aliens? well...no. Yet atheists are the first to draw out facts, science and probability in their favour...or maybe, when it suits them?

which i find interesting, which leads me to the conclusion that atheists believe in santa, celebrate the birth of christ, and believe in aliens...yet they have a go at religious folk for thinking an invisible man created the universe...

(without any IKEA instructions, though if he did - they'd probably be a spare planet rolling around the stars somewhere)...

so some atheists take a religious festivity and say "well, I'm not celebrating this in the religious way...I'm calling christmas...PUG_WEASEL_DANCE PARTY from now on and there's nothing you can do to stop me...no, no, no..its you thats being irrational my friend! leave me alone with my gifts from santa and my flashing light hat for when the aliens land...go back to your stupid beliefs and leave me to mine..."

themagicwand wrote:

Ted wrote: all non-pagans should go to work on the May bank holiday.

Yes, those pesky workers appropriating what was a lovely May king & queen crowning pagan-fest! Down with the workers I say, and up with the May poles!

And let's build a wicker man!

Ted wrote:And let's build a wicker man!

And burn Nicholas Cage in it!

I think a straw man may be more apt in this case.

Iain surely it's not hypocritical as long as vegans don't eat their shoes.
Also my mother is an atheist and as far as I know she has never mocked anyone for being religious, nor has she shown any indication that she thinks religion is a bad thing she just doesn't believe in god.

Like I said you keep confusing atheists with antitheists, and there are plenty of antitheists who call themselves atheists but by saying atheists who celebrate christmas are being hypocritical assumes that they feel morally superior for their lack of belief.
Although I suppose it is hypocritical to demand a separation of church and state but be okay with state sanctioned religious holidays, but I think it depends on wether you're against laws being dictated by the bible or wether your against school pagents. One can actually be harmful the other is just religious.

Anyway you don't strike me as either christian or pagan so should you work over christmas?

I'm not confusing anything...where's your evidence for that?

if you mean atheists with antitheists, then no...as there are some atheists who do not realise that they are antitheists...

just like some vegetarians don't realise they are pescatarians...

i do work over christmas...the event itself means nothing to me - on a comsumerism or belief level...

Iain,
did you seriously just make a point of atheists picking and choosing what to believe in after utterly dismissing earlier questions about christians utterly ignoring rules in the bible that don't suit them?

And complain about atheists becoming more vocal? personally I don't care what you choose to believe as long as you alllow me my atheism, but its not us on every high street banging on about how wrong you are and insulting random passers by and threatening them with hell.

I think i can solve the original issue however:

As of today I declare the existence of the religion of Dave, Son of Barry. Dave taught us centuries ago to blah de blah whatever, in the intervening years we have selected what we want of his teachings and refashioned them to suit the needs of an atheist belief structure. This can not be questioned, as it has to be taken on faith, questioning is heresy though noone actualy knows why except of course that faith is enormously convenient.
Now you may call The Sons Of Dave a cult, but I'm ok with that as give us 2000 years and we will become an accepted part of society, regardless of any damage we do.
How does this solve the original issue? Matching holiday dates. Christmas as it stands now, regardless of what it is based on, is an entirely commercially constructed concept with bits tagged on here and there as man or the Coca Cola corporation desire, so now I'm making it Davemas, same dates, atheists now have a reason for presents too.

don't forget the tax breaks..

where's your proof of this Dave, son of Barry? until you can give me evidence, then i shall not believe a single word you say..

Tomo wrote:If it please the court, may I draw m'lud's attention to the somewhat counter intuitive idea that winter was actually a time of plenty. Lots of fruit, grain, bread, meat and drink. Summer, just before the harvests, was when people would have been likely to die of starvation.

Food was stored for the winter, but there was always the nagging fear that it would be used up before spring came round again. Hence the midwinter festival -- "we've made it to the halfway point, the days are beginning to lengthen, winter will eventually end". Time to break out some extra supplies and celebrate with a feast. And incidentally to decorate with evergreens (defiance of winter) and fires (heralding the coming sun, or possibly encouraging it on its way).

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:If anything I'd say Jesus is a sun god, (think son of god). Steeple's are simply modern day obelisk's (which were giant stone cocks 'erected' for sun worship.) Jesus is often depicted with a halo of gold behind his head, and he 'rises again' in the Spring. Also go into any old Christian church look around and you will find, usually displayed quite prominently, an image of the sun. So Ra became Yah became Yahweh became Jehovah.

In the western occult view of the Kabbalah, Jesus is associated with the sephirah (sphere) of Tiphareth, which is the solar sphere. This is where all healing and solar deities are categorised, as well as all sacrificed or self-sacrificing deities.

Robbie wrote:

Tomo wrote:If it please the court, may I draw m'lud's attention to the somewhat counter intuitive idea that winter was actually a time of plenty. Lots of fruit, grain, bread, meat and drink. Summer, just before the harvests, was when people would have been likely to die of starvation.

Food was stored for the winter, but there was always the nagging fear that it would be used up before spring came round again. Hence the midwinter festival -- "we've made it to the halfway point, the days are beginning to lengthen, winter will eventually end". Time to break out some extra supplies and celebrate with a feast. And incidentally to decorate with evergreens (defiance of winter) and fires (heralding the coming sun, or possibly encouraging it on its way).

Yebut, My source was James Burke's meticulously researched Connections.

Tomo wrote:Yebut, My source was James Burke's meticulously researched Connections.

I won't hear a single word against the lovely James Burke!

Surely the whole thing comes down to letting people do whatever the hell they want and not trying to impress your own opinions on everyone else?

I am atheist and occasionally vocal against religious types trying to encourage ignorance, though I would never tell them that they don't have the right to believe what they do, just that they equally don't have the right to tell me what to believe or try to force their beliefs on others. Despite this, I take Christmas off because I like to have a break and it's as good a time as any since my friends and family are also off work. I couldn't care less what the reasons are; if they believed that forks would erupt from their eye sockets if they didn't give presents and eat whatever dish happens to be in fashion I would still use the opportunity to have the same time off despite their beliefs being patently ridiculous (rather like my opinion of most existing religion).

I won't tell anyone else when and why they should celebrate and I'd prefer it if they didn't do the same to me, thank-you very much.

As for Santa and the tooth fairy, why not? It's a bit of fun, stimulates the imagination and doesn't usually result in severe mental trauma when the truth is revealed.

You may also notice that I am still (outdatedly) sporting my St George's day avatar should I be burned for considering it quite fun to celebrate the day associated with the patron saint of my country, despite the fact that I consider his holiness to be complete flim and that any "miracle" performed by saints are likely to be either lies or easily explained in some way? I'll do what I want and don't really care if you think it is hypocritical; I'm not endorsing the doctrine, simply using the dates as an excuse to drink some fine seasonal ales!

Iain, for what it is worth I am an atheist (and a very vocal one) and I don't celebrate Christmas. I have worked every Christmas day for the past fourteen years, and expect to continue to do so. Last Christmas not only did I get to gig, I got to work a shift in a professional kicthen because they were short-staffed. I had a ball.

I do not believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny or aliens. Though logic tells me that there is a high probability of life off our planet, the fact is that no radio signals have been detected, so we know that any life in this corner of the universe, ourselves excepted, is non-technological. I don't believe in anything until it is proved. On the other hand I don't disbelieve in anything until it is disproved. Hence my views on aliens.

As for Santa, as a parent I know you have to feed a child's imagination. That is why we encourage them to read and to think. Santa, unlike Jesus or God, is a completely posotive idea. So I let them believe until they reached the age of reason. Then I told them the truth. On gods and afterlifes, I told them the truth from day one. I don't feel any of that makes my hypocritical.

Come December 25 I will work. I will also find time to play with my kids. Just like every other day.