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for those of you who don't know me, or only know me a little...this was all just a bit of fun - a tongue in cheek kinda premise/argument...

TonyB wrote: I don't believe in anything until it is proved.

Well, what constitutes as proof? Well, something observable and objective presumably. Well, proove that anything is observable and objective. You can't. It is a nice little paradox. Because we are all stuck only in our own perception and only from there can we make our observations. If someone says they experience God and God is real to them, then to them his existance has been 'prooved' to them.
The fact is, nobody has a monopoly on the truth. Nothing is fact, and 'real' or 'exist' mean pretty much nothing, only from our own perception can we understand those terms. 'Cogito Ergo Sum', 'The only thing I know is that I know nothing' e.t.c.
Ok so maybe I'm playing the devil's advocate a little bit- but please, leave other people to themselves. It is quite simple: if they believe it, it is true, objective, fact. But somehow your belief is truer, more objective and more factual... Beliefs are beliefs- they are not fact, only to the individual believing. And on this basis, you cannot argue that you are being all humanitarian and trying to enlighten people from 'the cave'- when as part of the very human experience, we are permanantly trapped in that cave. Plato will tell you otherwise, but he wasn't paying attention to Socrates, who was superlativley wise.

Just a little critique on over-vocal atheism there...

IAIN wrote:for those of you who don't know me, or only know me a little...this was all just a bit of fun - a tongue in cheek kinda premise/argument...

Got that, but it's good to think about these things! I did wonder if my position was hypocritical then decided that it either wasn't or that I didn't care!

typical hypocritical atheist!

god is a smelly invisible non-entity, but i'll take the time off - thanks very much!

this year, i shall buy all my atheist friends a rack to keep their double-standards on...

see, I'm off again...

Well, since my standard is not believing in a deity rather than not taking any excuse for a bit of fun, I think I am just shy of setting double standards here. However, if the rack is a nice polished walnut affair then I'll have one anyway.

Iain,

There is no proof of Dave save the love in my heart, feel free not to believe in atheist Dave and believe in your "God" instead but those who trust not in Dave will never enter the kingdom of Alton Towers and instead spend eternity in Milton Keynes.
I would write a holy book of Dave, but it seems a whole lot of trouble to go to to aid my facetious argument and i can't be ar*ed

It just occured to me that your argument could never work anyway, I'm not much of a christmas person anyway and have worked on the day BUT i, and presumably Tony, got paid more for working christmas day, so even working on christmas day FORCES me to suffer christianity in the form of masses of extra cash.

do any atheists take any time off for diwali or ramadan?

just seems a bit confusing that a lot of you just so happen to take time off from work around christmas, but not so much for some of the others? no consistency...

why so picky? its not to do with the cold, getting presents or anything else it is? surely not...

Ok, I give in. I am a smelly Atheist, and if someones offering presents, Im 'avin 'em.

IAIN wrote:do any atheists take any time off for diwali or ramadan?

...

why so picky?

We can't get away with having them all off, unfortunately, so I go for the ones most popular amongst my family and friends (most of whom are smelly, hypocritical atheists themselves actually). If my friends and family were of a different background then I'd take different holidays.

it is simple the lack of a belief in a god.

There's been some semantic confusion in this thread. In the name of pedantry, I'll just add as a footnote:

Atheism (a-theos = "no god") is the belief that there is definitely no God of any kind.

Agnosticism (a-gnosis = "no knowledge") is the belief that there may or may not be a God of some kind, but its existence or nonexistence has not been proven or is not knowable by man.

Several posters here have called themselves atheists, but seem to be really agnostics, judging by what they've said.

Sudden thought...

An atheist is positive there is no God, or gods, or any supernatural force intelligent or otherwise. The universe was not created by any kind of creator, and is not run by any kind of spiritual overseer(s).

Right. So given all that as a belief, there's still nothing in there that says there's no afterlife! Just because religions preach about an afterlife, that doesn't prove it has to be religious to exist.

What if there is an existence of some kind after bodily death, and it exists according to strictly natural laws of physics, along with the rest of the universe?

I'm not saying there is or there isn't. But I can imagine that there could be a fully atheistic, natural, scientific "heaven". It would make an interesting science-fiction story!

Robbie wrote:There's been some semantic confusion in this thread.

Mostly because, in common use, atheism has come to mean a lack of belief in any deity. From my point of view as a scientist, I cannot state that I believe that there is no god as it remains a possibility, however, I find agnosticism to be too weak; saying that we can't know either way dismisses the fact that many things that used to be considered solely by religion have now been explained by science. From that point of view, whilst I can't in all conscience state that I believe there to be no possibility of the existence of any god, it is clear to me that the majority of the evidence seems to point to the lack of necessity of anything supernatural so it is illogical to believe in it.

That is why I would claim to be atheist rather than agnostic.

typical wishy-washy atheist get out clause style excuses!

first you dont take time off when it just so happens to be ramadan, but you accidently take time off when all your friends and family do at christ's mass...tsk tsk tsk...pick and choose, pick and choose....

where's the modern day atheist's commitment eh?

"i don't agree with hitler's viewpoints, but i quite like the uniform, so i'll wear that...thats ok isnt it..."

lazy!

IAIN wrote:
both are nonsense arguments, if something stands, intrinsically against what you believe in - then peer pressure or anything else should not come into it...

Hehe, I am an atheist but it wouldn't say it stands against what I believe in, I just don't believe in what it stands for.

I'm more indifferent to other peoples beliefs than against them. Maybe I am an apatheist.

Anyway I love the family time and attached traditions.