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This topic has been a big thorn in the side of my mind for a long time; and this is regarding the art of "pulling someone over without touching them".

I enjoy martial arts, and was interested in watching "Mind, Body and Kick ass moves" which aired on BBC 3 not so long ago. In various episodes Chris (I think) stands behind a person, and uses Chi/Ki to pull someone backwards (he also gives people weird sensations, all the while not touching them).

I was happy to accept that this was some weird martial arts effect...and that I'd have to develop my Chi Gung. Of course, the tables turned whilst watching Derren Brown in "Messiah". If you recall whilst posing as a radical Christian, "converting" people. He stands behind someone and pulls them backwards.

This leads me to believe that it (as well as a lot of martial arts demonstrations) are atleast in part a trick. (A lot of it is due to physics), but I can't get my head around this.
I can believe that Derren uses his mini-hypnotism (and by saying he will catch them, let what happen happen, and standing behind them. They are inevitably going to fall), but for the more detailed versions (pushing pulling, and doing other stuffs ) I just can't get it.

Any help?

Edit [ I'm guessing you prob wont tell me, but a direction to a book, or a discussion about it would be interesting. I've been stewing about this for a while ]

(Some of Derren's stuff annoys me....because there doesn't seem to be any logical explanation. It's seems to be pure witchcraft....it's great!).

KamaKase wrote:This topic has been a big thorn in the side of my mind for a long time; and this is regarding the art of "pulling someone over without touching them".

I enjoy martial arts, and was interested in watching "Mind, Body and Kick ass moves" which aired on BBC 3 not so long ago. In various episodes Chris (I think) stands behind a person, and uses Chi/Ki to pull someone backwards (he also gives people weird sensations, all the while not touching them).

Hello there,

This really rings big bells.

It's almost certainly covered in "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" ISBN 1899836020. It's an extensive and expensive exposition, but that's what libraries are for. Just add practice.

watching Derren Brown in "Messiah".

Just FYI (and those with Sky!) it's on again 11.05pm on Tuesday 17th May on E4.

It's almost certainly covered in "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism"

Yep - it's definitely in there. I think it's in the first chapter if I remember correctly.

Try a little experiment - stand with your eyes closed for a little while. You'll see that soon you start to sway backwards and forwards a bit. Now add a bit of suggestion to amplify that sensation, as well as emphasise the backwards motion and you can quite easily get someone to fall over.
(I don't think that counts as exposure - if so, sorry, and please delete).

Another good book (although it doesn't cover this specifically) is "Sleight of Mind" - mentioned in the review section. It has similar 'experiments' which could be applied to the falling over thing.

Don't stop believing in your chi gung skills though i think there is alot of mystic stuff in all that malarky. maybe you could use that to create your persona. Chris from "Mind Body" also did an act of chi gung where he got about 5 people to push him without him moving. This has been done for years by magicians also and uses an inertia principle but i also believe that you need belief in this for it to work whether it be chi gung or magical power.

Thank you so much! It certainly seems a simple idea, but obviously quite complicated to get right, but very nice to look at.

"Don't stop believing in your chi gung skills though i think there is alot of mystic stuff in all that malarky."

After my first session (I used a book rather than a teacher *slaps wrist*) I felt so relaxed. The effects lasted about 3 days. Seriosly, if you're feeling tense as you're doing you magical effects and want to loosen up. Or just totally relax. Set aside a 15 - 30 minutes or so. You do feel absolutely great afterwards.

"It's an extensive and expensive exposition, but that's what libraries are for. Just add practice."

Oooo...h Thanks! I'll look that one up!

...it's not too Paul McKenna ish is it??

KamaKase wrote:"It's an extensive and expensive exposition, but that's what libraries are for. Just add practice."

Oooo...h Thanks! I'll look that one up!

...it's not too Paul McKenna ish is it??

Hello there.

I think it all depends on how you present it, really. Brown does this sort of thng in the form of the force of "God" pulling the guy backwards, in "Messiah" if I remember correctly.

Yes, that's right. The fact that Derren was insistant that it was "all a trick" set off huge sirens in my head about watching the martial artists (and others) do the same.
So I was just wondering what the "magical" method was, rather than spending 10 years of my life studying Chi Kung (which I might to anyway). Derren certainly poses the mind to be an interesting beast.

I have deleted all content of my posts (the rest of the usual silly stuff has been deleted by Mods but the more reasonable part was mainly in support of his assertion that every magcian had a duty to fight against fraudulent psychics/mediums etc. We don't want any of his message to get out in case it spreads like a virus and we end up with several members that can think for themselves!)

Gary3911 wrote:Part of the remit of modern magicians is to expose charlatans and fraud. It's part of the duties of the Magic Circle, and more famously people like James Randi.

I'd never heard that. Can you shed some more light on this for me, please?

I know that a lot of magicians do try to expose frauds, but I had no idea there was some kind of remit, let alone that it's part of the duties of the Magic Circle (I'm not big on magic societies). I've heard of James Randi and his work.

I have deleted all content of my posts (the rest of the usual silly stuff has been deleted by Mods - not sure if this affects the flow of the thread much, if at all, but that's what happens when people throw a wobbly like this - never mind, it's the way we handle things when we don't like what someone else says!)

Gary3911 wrote:The martial arts world is a whole different ball game from magic - people will tell you anything to get you to part with money or time in order to sell fake secrets. In the conjourers' world, we know up front that what we buy is all a trick.

Just jumping in to save the honor of the "martial arts world": There are certainly lots of black sheep around, but actually that's the same in magic. Or do you think that somebody who went into an esoteric shop to learn "the stuff that Derren Brown does" would get forwarded to a decent magic shop or a proper magic circle?

The danger of being ripped off by fraudulent or misguided people probably exists in any other activity as well.

In MA practice some people will tell you anything you want to hear while others will be honest and tell you upfront that it will take years to gain some skill that can impress someone. And still it will not turn you into an invincible fighting machine. The focus of a martial artist for most people is not to become a good fighter, but to improve both mentally and physically.

The single skill that will save an experienced martial artist when attacked in a dark alley is his endurance to run away from his/her attacker and the judgement that this is the wisest thing to do.

Just my two cents ...

Rumbark said:

There are certainly lots of black sheep around, but actually that's the same in magic.

So true and I agree with he rest of the post. A fraud is a fraud in all walks of life. It's sometimes not the actions that make a fraud but the intent!

on the flip side of chi, sientists are encreasingly aware that our brains are able to percieve the electrical field generated by the body from several hundred miles away.
are brains and body are exceptional low jacks antenas from aproximatly 0.1 hz to 3hz, thats the frequency used by submarines ulf or ultra low frequency.
a trained mind like that of a ninja or chi specialist can detect use this to detect the agression in an adversery from several feet away this is also the basis for remote viewing and clarvoiance and some forms of faith healers, neorologists have found that there are dormant areas of the brain near the language centre that are especial sensitive to vlf and it may be thease parts of the brain that cause problems for people who live under power lines due to vlf ground conduction.
having been a boofidi sensitive or psychic if you prefer then a cold reader and magician doing said exposes of practises from charlatons and spiritualists in my younger days, iv'e always thought there was a non religiouse reason for being able to pick up on people that and cold reading skils combined have made for some realy interesting psychic magic demonstrations in later years.

The single skill that will save an experienced martial artist when attacked in a dark alley is his endurance to run away from his/her attacker and the judgement that this is the wisest thing to do.

iv'e practised this martial art for many years now but its still nice to percieve ther intent before you see them comeing though.

Far too technical for me

Nice to see you Jason- haven't seen you post for a while. Hope that all's as well as it can be.