Just because it is an easy cop-out to say that the mysterious event might have been a coincidence does not mean that the mysterious event was not a coincidence.
However, I think the point Craig is making (in part), is that debunkers throw these things about like chaff when they cannot explain something. "I don't know what happened, so I will say it was a lucky guess, coincidence, or that someone must have misremembered something." So, by guessing or using catch-all statements, they are effectively doing the very things they condemn.
FINALLY! Someone that actually gets it! (sort of)
Congrats, you are the first person on ANY forum over the past ten years to actually understand most of where I’m actually coming from.
It's an interesting idea, and I think it has some merit, but I suppose it boils down to the old issue of who has the burden of proof. In law, there are presumptions. If X happens, then you presume Y. However, presumptions can be rebutted, and this can reverse the burden of proof. Once you have enough evidence to rebut the presumption, the other party must then prove that what would have otherwise been assumed did actually happen. They can no longer rely on an automatic application.
. . . and then you go fudge it all up by hinting at this old cop-out. If the “burden of proof” is on those that “claim” something, then perhaps the accusers need to supply the proof – something about innocent until PROVEN guilty comes to mind.
The naysayers have rattled their sabers for decades leaning on so-called “science” that is divided; not just on this issue but many others, the typical findings being based on who politically and economically sustains said research. Oil & Chemical Companies invest millions to prove that Global Warming and Climate Change is part of some leftist “One World Government” conspiracy (along with their ultra-conservative, typically religious right patrons). Then we have the UN and other such sources with a pile of research that verifies, beyond all doubt (just the for former) that it is real and we are heading to hell in a hand-basket.
There are dozens of examples in which the divine altars of Science are left wanting due to the human bias behind the “testing” – why, everything on this planet seems to cause cancer and other disease. Just keep exposing the rats to more and more of whatever it is and sure enough, they will get sick from it and DIE. Sorry, but such extremes AREN’T “Science” it’s a deliberate act for stacking a money-generating deck of cards on behalf of this and that corporate entity.
DO NOT (and I'm not pointing at any one person here) come back with blame; the lie that I do not understand how scientific study actually works; I’ve seen far too much duplicity within its holy tabernacles over the past 30 years to believe contrary to what others are starting to come to the fore and exposing – Legitimate Scientific Research is For Sale and whatever it is you want to prove out is what they will deliver. . . while other researchers will prove the contrary. There is research that has supported PSI that has been supported by accredited individuals and institution and yet, from the halls of those same institutions you will find other departments delivering similar credentials and validity to the opposing point of view. Which “side” is “right”?
If the American Judicial System is any indicator, it’s the side that has the strongest economic and social-political backing – the team that can afford to hire the better fast-talking experts who are better able to put spin to the issue in question or, at minimum, place sufficient confusion to the situation so as to challenge the jury at the psychological level – no one wants to be seen as a “fool” or uneducated dolt and yet, those that would insist that aspects of psi/spirit interaction, etc. is not valid, knowingly imply such in order to subdue the yet decided and “weak of faith”
I know of only two or three professed Christians that have spoken up on this particular forum. Twenty some years ago the Christian Magician’s Association was still a thriving fellowship with members that were not abashed to share their faith, their belief in the power of prayer, etc. Even the various abilities credited to psychics were accepted WHEN prefaced and tied to the famed Gifts of Pentecost – prophecy, healing, discernment, tongues, etc.
Where is that branch, that once strong and unhidden element today?
I’ll tell you; they’ve gone into retreat out of fear of harassment and brow-beating by the overwhelming number of naysayers, critics and pseudo-intellects that want to castrate society on every level when it comes to expressions of belief and experiential testimony.
We are not talking about law, however, and in reality each side has its own views and they will largely be entrenched. I really do recommend The Principles of Mentalism for a full consideration of why it's not a good idea to tell mentalism audiences that you are doing tricks. I am not saying Richard is necessarily right, but he makes good points.
Magic is a performing art and its rules are not like the laws of physics.
You’ve carefully returned to a view I can partly sustain (tiz a bit biased)
There’s an old saying, “That it Harm NONE, Do As Thou Will”
If what I or anyone else does under the many descriptives tied to the idea of PSYCHIC ENTERTAINMENT (it is called the P.E.A. after all) brings no sense of harm or loss to any other human being, where is the crime? Where is the supposed lack of “ethics” let alone “morality”.
How is it more “moral” to call people (or imply that) they are “idiots” because they believe in something? How is it “ethical” to create such angst in the lives of people that have deep convictions when it comes to their religious and cultural traditions?
What does it harm, to help an old person from such a culture, a person that doesn’t know better, by supporting them and their perceptions and doing so in a way that helps bring them a bit of peace and the ability to know a bit of personal empowerment?
We have how many people here taking the skeptic position and yet I can lay a month’s income on the table that NONE OF THEM have done actual criminal investigations into Psychic Fraud involving genuine criminal operators (and I’m not talking “soft targets” as Mr. Rowland encourages in his book; rather, hard-core crime networks that run this kind of razzle). Yet, every one of them have the balls to put me under thumb and blast me and my views; me, the guy that’s actually done such work – the guy that is in the position to get into the more dangerous situations because of 30+ years of working the shut-eye market. . . I’m not alone!
There’s dozens if not a few hundred MENTALISTS that do the same as I; we work the market while keeping our eyes open for the real crooks. Tell me of a better way to discover such things and “out them”.
Grue. . . I never have said that some divine thing said “Let there be light…” I said that there is MORE TO IT than science will ever be able to fully explain. I have said for decades that most of what Science has shared about the esoteric mirrors what the old occult masters said and taught though it was heavily obfuscated (mainly due to church persecution) HINT … Eye of Newt is an herb not a lizard’s body part.
I am not so bold as to say that “God” doesn’t exist but I am willing to say that something that is supposedly as Omnipotent and Infinite as God is supposed to be CANNOT be defined or contained in the way the world’s religions and various philosophies attempt to define it (and at the same time, claim that it is not definable. . . go figure)
I believe that whatever this essence might be, relied on physical laws as well as sciences and principles we are not yet aware of, in order to “create”. I base that on occult science and the fact that all “Magick” has a natural path and means – cause & effect. It’s not what we see in movies or Tv shows; far more mundane, so please give me credit for having more than two functioning brain cells (though they are rather crispy at times).
BALANCE IS TH E KEY in my book; both points of view contain a-truth but neither side is 100% mark. Until we (human society) get out of our own way and choose to wake-up to this very ancient truth, this sort of back and forth bickering will continue – human ego and bias being what it is. Just as I emphasize the more mystical perspective in magic forums, I challenge the New Age types to see things in a more pragmatic light. It’s not because I enjoy the role of Devil’s Advocate, just that I’m sick and tired of people on both sides of the fence, not recognize what they have in common with one another and thus, act out like spoilt children fighting over the same toy.
Yes, there are bad guys in this world but I can show you far more screwed up and even destroyed lives through the auspices of those pedigreed & certified Mental Health professionals the naysayers insist people go to for help, than you’ll find when it comes to the damage done in the real world by Psychics and even present-day Spiritualists. Screw-ups, Deluded Nut Jobs and Professional Con-Artists exist in EVERY vocation and niche group in society; they are a minority that bigots focus on and promote as being a “constant” vs. the “exception” This is an historic fact that can be seen in every single instance of bigotry – segregationism – in global history, even within the auspices of “like minded” peoples, just look at how many flavors of Christianity we have, all of them claiming to be “the true church” . . . (though none seem even remotely close to what JC & Co. actually shared let alone, being able to actually practice what he taught.)
THE END
