talkmagic.co.uk

Hello,

I'm trying to get the OOTW routine ready to perform, and I want to add in a convincer before I actually start the trick. I'm going to explain the trick as a sort of psychological illusion - that the participants can distinguish between the reds and blacks at a subconscious level. What I want to do is use a couple of cards as an example, and ask them what colour they are. I was wondering whether I could use some kind of psychological/NLP techniques to influence their answers. For example, if I say 'What colour is this card? Red or black?', and don't give them long to decide, perhaps they are more likely to say black because it is the last colour mentioned. From my observations, some of Derren Brown's suggestions seem to work like this. However, that's just a guess, as I don't really know anything about mentalism or the psychology stuff that Derren performs.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Hopefully what I've written above makes some kind of sense. cc100

Just let them guess. If they're right then great. If they're wrong ask them to "concentrate harder next time" or some such stuff. A good OOTW is so strong that you don't really need convincers anyway...

One way would be to do a simple empathy with the deck routine. Get them to randomly select a card (from a riffle.....), loose the card in the deck and cut to the card with a single cross cut. This will demonstrate their oneness with the cards, leading to OOTW. Easy to control, quick to perform and shouldn't take away from OOTW

Hope I’m not giving too much away there..... If I am then Mods, please feel free to cut 'n slash

If you're telling them what's going to happen, using the convincer to show it's possible and then they achieve exactly what you said would happen then you might get a rather "flat" reaction at the end. "He said we could tell the reds from the black and look, we did". If instead you just get them to make random guesses throughout, with no explanation, then the reveal at the end will amaze them as it is totally unexpected and seemingly impossible. Try it both ways and see the difference.

I suppose, but being able to separate the reds and blacks in a pack is seemingly impossible anyway. I might try it without telling them the point of the trick though.

a convincer? what, is the fact that they controll every move, and every moment not enough?
always remember that its them that do the magic, and therefore the result is an impossibility....

its a shock to them when its right.

I would make sure you pitch one spectator against another. ( as in currys original) as that adds something that many of the variations miss out on.

You're right, the trick probably doesn't need a convincer. But what I was thinking of doing was presenting it as a psychological illusion. I thought that doing it this way might distance it from merely being a card trick.

Some time ago...

Lawrence wrote:You should buy The Devil's Picturebook and Derren will show you all you need to know

You still should. You'll see a way to perform OOTW in the way that I think you want to.

cc100 wrote:You're right, the trick probably doesn't need a convincer. But what I was thinking of doing was presenting it as a psychological illusion. I thought that doing it this way might distance it from merely being a card trick.

you so need to read the original version.

the patter used stated something along the lines of.... " which one you FEEL is red, or FEEL is black.. dont look, trust your own intuition "

Now, its slightly different wording, but the effect is already based 100% around Psychological themes.So you really dont need to change it.

I haven't read the original version Daleshrimpton, but the suggested patter you gave is along the lines of how I was going to present it anyway. I haven't had any experience of performing the trick, so I think I'll take heed of your advice and leave the convincer ploy out.

I've heard about Derren's 'Dead or Alive' version of OOTW. I think I remember him performing it on one of the Mind Control episodes or something a while back. It sounds like a really interesting take on the routine. I'm definitely going to purchase The Devil's Picturebook at some point. Thanks for the suggestion Ted.

i like to give ONE spectator the chance to memorise the order of the cards, i use the green angle separation while running through the cards so they can see each and every one, i start slowly naming each colour, and then i get faster and faster until the end.
i then get the person who "memorised the cards to deal into 2 piles, until i get to the half way point. at which point i stop the deal, and ask the spectator to hand the cards to a second spectator who will continue the deal by reading cues from the original spectators face as to which card should go where. this gives me a nice excuse to change the order of the markers,
since i've started doing it this way i've noticed that the audience interest in the dealing increases. perhaps they are trying to pick up on the cues as well or something.

it might not be everyones cup of tea, but it works for me.



if you really want to throw in a convincer why not use one of the impromptu versions? such as Nu Way Out Of This World by U F Grant.
It uses a shuffled deck, but the spectator cannot handle the cards until after the marker switch over.


Also if you could stack the deck with 13 reds, follwed by 13 blacks then 13 reds and 13 blacks - so that if you cut dead centre and riffle shuffle the 2 halves together the reds will shuffle into the other reds and the same with the blacks, there may be a few cards mixed in the centre, but you can use them as the markers, or you can simply hold them up and ask the audience to guess if they are red or black while you explain the premise of the effect. then follow up with the false overhand

When i was young and inexperienced i occasionally forgot which pile was the safe pile... so as a safety check (and this is something i've always done anyway i just realised it can be used as a check, also it is advised in the original method) during the second half of the dealing i pause the deal and grab the last card dealt and show it to be either correct or incorrect, if its correct i say, "good job, just wanted to check" if its incorrect, i'll say something like "almost..." or "you missed one" then i know which colour is on top.
obviously its better to pay attention and remember where the cards are meant to be, but since I'm going to do this anyway i like to use it as a check just to be sure.

Darwin Ortiz writes about surprise vs suspense...

i used to present this effect in a way which packed a big surprise, i explained what i was asking the audience to do, but i also explained that it was just demonstrate what was about to happen and using their dealing as a way of explaining the premise of my next effect. i made it very clear that the spectator was not going to separate the colours so he should just deal through them as fast as he could (i used the devils picturebook method in this case to eliminate the marker switch as there would have been no motivation for doing the switch) at the end, just out of curiosity i check to see how the spectator has done, and wow he managed against the odds to separate the colours. the audience always seemed quite surprised and had a good laugh.

however with the way i do it now i make it clear that the spectator should really try to separate the colours. no one can imagine it actually working, but everyone hopes it will, the time spend dealing builds suspense, i leave a tiny delay before the reveal, everyone is invested in the outcome, and is still surprised at the result, i find the audience reaction a lot more enjoyable this way, it's making more out of the effect.


Out Of This World is an amazing piece of magic, good choice cc100.

I suppose if you were wanting to do a 'test run' with them before OOTW kicks in proper then you could have a black on top of the deck with a red 2nd. If they say black as your suggestion erm suggests then turn over the top card, if they say red then a simple DL will suffice.

I've never tried this or really felt the need for much of a lead in to the effect but it would do exactly what you're looking for.

I havent read the WHOLE post... but i use some convincers.. this are mine!! hope this is not exposure...

in the begin i just put a red and a black next to eachother on top

i ask them to name the color of the top ... and if right i just deal it face up on the table... if wrong i do an DL and a clean up laying the right card on the table faceup and leaving the other card on top..

when i see the spectator being a physical heckler i will divide the cards myself... whatever pile they say ofcourse.... if its the right color i drop the card but grip it little more on the edge that wil make it flip over.. and give them a feedback that its righht..

also when u divide the cards u say ohh ohh i think u did one wrong.. can u point at the wrong card ? this wil get u a black card out of the red pile!!":p for the second part of the trick...



When i see a good spectator thats not likely to turn every card they get.. i do it like this...
i let them shuffle a single run/overhand shuffle

then i present it as a memorisation of the deck and a influence of them routine...

it starts out like this when i get the cards back i re adjust the few cards that been shuffled:P almost never more then 5 cards... then i put the jokers in the middle 27th and 28th position i get the bottom card and put it on top and say i will begin the memorization ... i glance at the cards for max 1/2 minutes,...

then i do the same as in the other variation with the begin of defining the color of a card

after that i let them do it

and i make soms subtle movements with my hands that makes them think there influenced/.... ( i once did this a other guy came in half way the trick and saw my hands subtle movements) he took me aside after the trick and said i saw how u did it... i said WHAT? he said i saw the hand movements :p i totally lolled and played along)

so they will divide the cards.. u can say to them stop!!! when they put a card on the table that is in the wrong pile":P if u remember the card 13th for example and then name the card they will be like WTF!!... also i say on the 27th card... the joker WAIT! stop that are jokers.. they turn it around and u totally proven ure point about the memorization! after that u tell them they had 1 card wrong... and let them get a "wrong" card that one u place on the other pile and u continue.. u can make them shuffle again from this point and remember the "ordeR" again

tell me what u think off this

@ Miniolo: I think the beauty of the OOTW routine is that it takes the focus of the performance away from the magician and places it on the spectator. In most card tricks the performer is effectively saying 'Look at all the clever stuff that I can do'. In OOTW this is not the case, as it is the participant performing the magic. There's nothing wrong with what you've suggested, and I'm sure it would work. But I think that if you present OOTW as a memory feat or a magician-influenced divination of red and black cards, the whole purpose of the trick (in my view) is defeated.

unless it isnt magician influenced, it could be the spectator reading the magicians subconscious cues...

but i agree, making the participant seem like the star is the way to go