talkmagic.co.uk

So it's been pointed out in my responses to other threads that I seem image obsessed, and it's started arguments, all of which have led grossly off topic, one of which got the thread removed by mods (at least I assumed that's what happened, I posted to it, went to bed and the next morning it was gone).

I wanted to open this up for discussion in it's own little place, see if I'm the only person who takes issue with it and then let it disappear if it's all just in my head.

There arent many women in magic. I mean there are lots but it's a tiny fraction of the number of men. Why is this?

Magic, after all, is a skill, it's something that can be learned. There's no physical aspect of the male anatomy (such as the required musculature which keep's male and female sports segregated) which is in any way advantageous magic. Magic is one of those things seen as all inclusive, there are young magicians, there are old magicians, there are tall magicians, short magicians, fat magicians, thin magicians, bald magicians all competing on a level playing field because the craft and the art is driven by and judged on skill alone, pure ability to perform.

Or is it? (you can make a dun-dun-dun! noise here if you like)

I feel inadequate, not because I am still learning and very very near the start of what I hope will become a long career in magic, but because I fear that if I decide to go pro, ditch in the software biz and try to become a working magician for a living, I will hit a barrier judged not on skill but on waist size?

I am constantly reminded of the fact that when people think of magic they think of men in dapper suits and top hats. The only way a female magician can be considered against this stereotype is by bringing something else to the bargaining table. And by something else I'm talking about corsetry and flirtation.

At this point I feel I should point out that I'm not a prude. I appreciate a nice looking body in sexually suggestive outfits as much as the next person, I just don't feel like the next person would neccessarily appreciate MY body in sexually suggestive outfits.

Though I'm sure no one really ever intended it to end up like this, there is an undercurrent that magic is a field solely judged on ability and performance skill... unless you're a woman in which case you also need to have a smoking hot bod.

And lets face it, if you have a smoking hot bod and you want to become a performer, the current celebrity trend shows you don't need to spend years infront of a mirror practising prestidigitation to win X-factor.

I think this may be keeping women out of magic. It's certainly making me question whether I'll ever go pro.

I know we can't exactly go out and change what the public wants, they either want men or sexy burlesque magic and we can't change that overnight, but In the places I brought this up before I was trying to raise awareness of how we might recognise and defeat this attitude within.

The first place I mentioned this was when many people were commenting on a video of a very attractive woman performing card flourishes, many of them saying she wasn't great but made up for it with other assets (yeahh.....)

The other was on an introduction of a new female member who was still trying to find a style and one member suggested "Why not use the fact you're a women to your advantage?" When I called him on this, by sugegsting that we didn't need to pander to male fantasy to succeed, he said he meant it innocently... but didn't go into what he actually meant. Possibly he couldn't think of an innocent interpretation to offer in its place.

I'm not trying to make this personal, I've said no names here, I'm just trying to illustrate the point that while these attitudes are boiling around right under the surface of magic it will retain the image of being a very male dominated environment.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

What does everyone else think?

-Stacy

I hope you don't mind me writing my 2p worth of opinion.
Image and costume is and always has been a hugely important aspect of Conjuring. The recent trend of 'scruffy' Magicians 'dressed down' in casual clothes was done first by Doug Henning in the 1970s and it caused alot of controversy among magicians at the time who weren't happy that he wasn't dressed correctly. The same as the people who you say are judging you. But it worked for Henning's 'hippy' style act and I think it was a careful image he developed for his act at the time.
Image and costume are very important in magic, whether you are a Spirit Medium conducting a Seance or contacting the dead, a Children's Entertainer, a Mentalist, a Street Busker, Stage Magician, Abanazar in Christmas Pantomime or a Magician doing Close Up at an evening event. Remember that all the above is just glorified pantomime and its important that your costume reflects that. Otherwise will your audience believe that you are a Magician doing Magic, or will they just see you as a person doing some tricks?

That being the case (and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but its just an idea that you may or may not like), but why don't you present yourself as a Man? False Goaty Beard, Painted Magicians Eyebrows, White Tie and Tails or Dinner Suit with some padding down the front of your trousers ?
I'm being serious. If you believe your Gender may be a handicap, then develop a Stage Persona with another Gender. Present yourself as a male magician and work on the pastiche and drag aspects of that.

I agree that there should be more women in magic. Laura london is someone who i really respect as a magician and very talented entertainer, when i watch her do her act i enjoy the magic and not just what she looks like. Just be yourself and astound people with your magic. We need to move away from The Showgirls of Magic style of presentation and let the ladies be entertainers in the own right using the skills they learnt and nothing else.

Stephen Ward wrote:
Just be yourself

I strongly disagree. I think it is better to develop a great 'character'.

Thankyou both!

Though I agree that character is everything, Stephen seems to grasp what I said that there should be more characters for women that just Showgirls of Magic. I like that phrase, I'm going to use it more often, it sums up what I'm talking about.

I have to say I'm kind of shocked at the suggestion that female conjurors not wanting to be cast as SoM should just perform as men. There are probably feminist writers who would vomit organs at the mere thought of it.

-Stacy

I have fairly established opinions on this, and will try to address them. Please don't judge what I am saying - note that this is only my opinion:

There arent many women in magic. I mean there are lots but it's a tiny fraction of the number of men. Why is this?

It is of my opinion that most (though, albeit, not all) magicians became magicians because they had some social issues at some point in their life. This is not to say socially impotent - my personal example would be that I was run over my a truck, ended up with MRSA and put in isolation, and when I re-joined school I ended up as the outcast; by the time that I was allowed out the "cliques" had formed. I partook in "The Lord of the Rings" version of "Warhammer", and took up magic. I was the social outcast, and I needed something that I could do myself. As well as this, magic allowed me to turn into "somebody else". When I was performing at school, I wasn't being insulted. Take a look at Ellusionist, and you will see that pretty much every member is of school-age.

With relation to this and women, I know that a lot of the "socially outcasted" females ended up taking up their own hobbies. Stereotypically, women didn't do magic (stemming from the "Male magician with beautiful assistant" stereotype - when I perform nowadays women will say "do you want an assistant" not "can you teach me?". Men will say "can you teach me" not "do you want an assistant"). Because women never did magic, when socially outcasted younger females, on average, don't see it as an avenue to explore.

I'm sure that most people on this forum (though once again, not all) will probably admit they initially did magic because of a social reason - be it attention, loneliness, or because they had certain social skills that they needed to work on. This may not be the case now, years on, but the initial reason why they started would probably be down to this reason.

Magic, after all, is a skill, it's something that can be learned. There's no physical aspect of the male anatomy (such as the required musculature which keep's male and female sports segregated) which is in any way advantageous magic. Magic is one of those things seen as all inclusive, there are young magicians, there are old magicians, there are tall magicians, short magicians, fat magicians, thin magicians, bald magicians all competing on a level playing field because the craft and the art is driven by and judged on skill alone, pure ability to perform.

Or is it? (you can make a dun-dun-dun! noise here if you like)

I feel inadequate, not because I am still learning and very very near the start of what I hope will become a long career in magic, but because I fear that if I decide to go pro, ditch in the software biz and try to become a working magician for a living, I will hit a barrier judged not on skill but on waist size?

I am constantly reminded of the fact that when people think of magic they think of men in dapper suits and top hats. The only way a female magician can be considered against this stereotype is by bringing something else to the bargaining table. And by something else I'm talking about corsetry and flirtation.

I see what you are saying, and I agree with certain elements. You will be judged on waist-size yes - but not "you must be a size 10" but more "you shouldn't be unhealthy". Now that I have turned pro I am working a lot more on my body image - not the clothes that I wear, but making sure that I don't become overweight, and try to keep healthy. Take a look on television (for example). Not a single famous magician was ever unhealthily overweight - Paul Daniels, David Blaine, Dynamo, Criss Angel, Derren Brown, etc - they are all not unpleasant to look at. I agree that to a degree it should be based on ability, but it will always be based on looks as well. In any job that uses face to face contact, somebody who is healthy and not unattractive will always have an advantage over those who are not. This is not necessarily the way it should be, but it's reality.

And with relation to your corsetry and flirtation - I absolutely detest flirty female magicians - I absolutely hate it. I think Penn and Teller: Fool Us brought out the worst persona from female magicians. I hated the "do you want to crack my nuts" and the "tie me up...oooh" rubbish. Can female magicians not use their own personality? I know I do when I perform! I don't say such things as "hold my d!ck...I mean deck"

At this point I feel I should point out that I'm not a prude. I appreciate a nice looking body in sexually suggestive outfits as much as the next person, I just don't feel like the next person would neccessarily appreciate MY body in sexually suggestive outfits.

Though I'm sure no one really ever intended it to end up like this, there is an undercurrent that magic is a field solely judged on ability and performance skill... unless you're a woman in which case you also need to have a smoking hot bod.

And lets face it, if you have a smoking hot bod and you want to become a performer, the current celebrity trend shows you don't need to spend years infront of a mirror practising prestidigitation to win X-factor.

I think this may be keeping women out of magic. It's certainly making me question whether I'll ever go pro.

And this is where, as I explained above, it is of my opinion that you are incorrect. I believe there is a difference between somebody who looks healthy and somebody who is nicely dressed, and somebody who is wearing provocative outfits.

I know we can't exactly go out and change what the public wants, they either want men or sexy burlesque magic and we can't change that overnight, but In the places I brought this up before I was trying to raise awareness of how we might recognise and defeat this attitude within.

The first place I mentioned this was when many people were commenting on a video of a very attractive woman performing card flourishes, many of them saying she wasn't great but made up for it with other assets (yeahh.....)

Socially retarded magicians with no social skills? No? Does this not remind you of what I mentioned above?

Most (though not all) magicians started because they were missing that vital social element. I know I was. I know I now have it. I also know of people on this forum who don't like me or the way I am (yes I have my sources who have fed back to me what gets said behind my back) and that is a part of life. I am lucky to have found this social skill, but the point is there are several people on this forum (and I think we can all think of at least one person.....and if you can't, it's you ) who are still missing that vital element.

Rather than thinking of the few people who made remarks, try thinking of the many people who didn't? It reminds me of the few males who, on a night out, grind up against every single girl until they get a potential lay. Men then get judged. But rather than thinking of the two men that do that, why not think of the 502 men who didn't?

The other was on an introduction of a new female member who was still trying to find a style and one member suggested "Why not use the fact you're a women to your advantage?" When I called him on this, by suggesting that we didn't need to pander to male fantasy to succeed, he said he meant it innocently... but didn't go into what he actually meant. Possibly he couldn't think of an innocent interpretation to offer in its place.

This sort of thing as been addressed before. For example, a women who wears maybe, a tanktop whereby cleavage is showing (something which a lot of women wear day-to-day - I never see showing the top of cleavage as being "saucy or provocative"), you could use said cleavage as a hold out. Most women have longer hair on average than men...why not use that to your advantage? Have certain coins clipped in underneath several layers of hair? Hook something on the bottom of the hair? There are many ways in which you can use being a woman to your advantage, without resorting to stripping and offering yourself on a plate.

I'm not trying to make this personal, I've said no names here, I'm just trying to illustrate the point that while these attitudes are boiling around right under the surface of magic it will retain the image of being a very male dominated environment.

And in response I hope that you don't take anything that I have said personally. I have honestly put a lot of thought into this post and hope that you know that nothing is meant personally.

But hell, I don't know you and wouldn't recognise you if I passed you on the street

Or maybe I'm wrong.

What does everyone else think?

I hope that I have answered this question adequately

To quote the great Jeff McBride who is a little chubby "image, I-MAGE"

I think the main problem is that for a long time magic has been a male dominated pastime/ hobby and to pretty much all intents, it still is. If you go to any magic society, meet-up or conference, the ladies are outnumbered by at least 5 to 1 if not more, which I imagine is just a little bit intimidating to any women who want to join in. Subsequently, the majority of female magicians have to be just that little bit feistier or conform to the cliches of 'women in magic' just to get their feet under the table.

If you compare it to the world of stand-up comedy, the magical scene is where comedy was about 20 or 30 years ago where there were a few female comics out there who had to fight every step of the way to make a name for themselves against the waves of testosterone and a tiny number made it big whilst a lot were left by the way side. Now though, thanks to those who stuck with it and refused to put up with any c*** (not the best), there are loads of female comics, so many now that it's no longer a novelty that their female and they don't have to aim their material towards attracting a female audience as both people of both genders laugh at their jokes. In fact, they're now simply introduced as comedians!

Sadly, I don't think magic has caught up yet. The ladies are still much largely confined, in the publics imagination at least, to the role of glamourous assistant and we're just beginning to see female magicians although it's still considered a novelty but things are moving forward.

My advice is to stick with it and do things the way you think they should be done rather than how everybody else tells you do them. If you feel most comfortable performing as yourself, wearing your normal clothes, go with it. If you'd prefer to create a character, do that. The important thing to do is to fight to have things your way, the way you think they should be. If people like Jo Brand and French & Saunders had just done the acts that male comedians thought they should do, then the only role for women in comedy would be as ditzy love interests or dumb blondes. Instead, the did the acts that they wanted to see, the jokes that they wanted to hear and their audiences loved (and still do love) them for it as they were doing material that people wanted but nobody had done in the past.

So do the magic you want to do, however you want to do it, and wearing whatever the hell you want because if it's good and clever and honest (as honest as magic can be ) then there will be people who want to see it. Aim to impress your audience, not other magicians.

I very much like the observations regarding a magician's glamorous assistant and the similarities to stand-up comedy, made by Beardy and AJ respectively.

It's been a male-dominated hobby for a long time as have many professions also. Thankfully we're seeing more women in all sorts of jobs where we once wouldn't see so many.

If you stick at it you'll be at the top of your game well int time for the hopefully-imminent parity between male and female magicians.

edited to remove stupid statement

oh and just wanted to add........ love the title of this thread..........pure genius stacey!!!! lol

V.E. Day wrote:

Stephen Ward wrote:
Just be yourself

I strongly disagree. I think it is better to develop a great 'character'.

And what's wrong with who I am?

To be sucessful as a magician there are certain requirements that must be met. And this is in no particular order.

You must be entertaining.
You must be entertaining using magic as a medium.
You must have a good business sense, or have enough sense to hire somebody to manage your business.

There are some very successful female magicians although they are in the minority. Keep in mind that the amount of successful magicians in general is also very small in the grand scheme of things.

To be a big name it is going to be harder if you are female because of the way the entertainment industry worked for a very long time. Now we are all just playing catch-up.

What I have found to be interesting, (and this is no reflection on the original poster or anybody else on here because I don't know you personally) is the amount of excuses I hear as to why a person has failed in the magic business and it is always somebody elses fault, or exposure.

The entertainment business is a tough one, magic being such a microcosum in such a large industry makes it even tougher, magic being at the bottom of the pack, (above mimes, on par with clowns, and below comedians) makes it even tougher.

My best advice, go out perform and if your audience likes you and you get more bookings then you are right things, regardless of gender.

So you've told us you don't want to dress as a Showgirl of Magic because you would feel inadequate, and you tell us that you don't want to perform in Drag as you are shocked at the idea. So now we've established what you don't want to do please tell us how you do want to do. Let's be positive rather than just negative, and tell us what you do want to dress as?

I'll be honest, I don't know.
Probably something a bit anachronistic if I was going for a character, I know some re-enactment costumers .

The point of this post sort of started with myself and another female magician mentioning that we were trying to find a style, and I mentioned that there were very few female archetypes for magic, and one response to this is what sparked the current thread.

I wasn't really shocked by the idea of performing in drag so much as It sort of seemed to play into the problem I was trying to solve. If there are no female archetypes in magic other than the showgirl and the pretty assistant, everyone who doesn't fit those presenting themselves as men doesn't really solve the problem. If any thing it might exacerbate it.

-Stacy