talkmagic.co.uk

cc100 wrote:Haha, no, I don't. Magic is a game, after all. The spectators know magic isn't real, but they're prepared to play along as if it were. With Uri's psychic claims, I think it's sort of a similar thing. As long as it is purely for entertainment, and doesn't cross into the uncomfortable areas of mediumship and stuff, I don't really have a problem with it. Just my opinion.

you're entitled to yours just the same as the rest of us!!

but i have to say that uri does.......(or did, not sure how he rolls these days)......claim to have psychic powers. Which is what my problem with him is. I understand what you're saying about people playing along with the illusion, but as you state yourself, as long as you don't lead people on and charlatonise your performance then you're going the right way about things......he just chooses/chose to lead people on

It's a fair point, and I completely understand why someone would have a problem with his psychic claims for that reason. But then you could extend that argument and say that Derren Brown is deceiving people by exaggerating the feats that can be achieved through suggestion and psychology (note that I'm not saying he doesn't use these techniques, just that they are probably over-emphasised). I guess it really is all about personal preference. Personally, I like to see the creation of personas by performers such as Derren Brown and Uri Geller. I think people become more involved in the illusions and they become more than just 'tricks', which can seem sort of childish. But I definitely understand your point C.L. Ward.

Brown says from the outset that it's all deception and tricks and is vocal in denouncing quackery. Geller, by claiming to have psychic powers, is no different from any other money-grubbing liar out there. A night of entertainment is very different from making people buy into the disgusting world of psychics.

Everyone's different but I'm with James Randi on people like Geller.

Just to play devil's advocate.

Does someone like Derren Brown give extra kudos and false ability to "life coaches" and "NLP Practitioners" in the same way as someone like Uri Gellar gives kudos and false ability to "psychics" and "mediums"?

Yes he did. I run one-to-one workshops with people who want to learn mentalism. I went to one guy's home and he had a book shelf stuffed with books on NLP, pop psychology, how to read body language, how to make friends in 5 seconds, etc etc. There were literally hundreds of them.

I walked into the room and he said to me, "I've read all of these books, and I STILL can't do what Derren Brown does."

He had wasted hundreds of pounds on books on this stuff. Why? Because that's what Derren Brown (and other mentalists he'd seen perform live) had said they were doing.

I'm reminded of glass houses and stone throwing.

I have in front of me Derren Brown's Tricks of the Minds series 1 DVD. To quote directly from the blurb:

"...fuses the power of suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship to predict and control human behaviour."

Really???

Power of suggestion? Psychology? Predict & control human behaviour??

You say tomato, I say tomato. You say psychology, I say psychic.

themagicwand wrote:"...fuses the power of suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship to predict and control human behaviour."

Really???

Power of suggestion? Psychology? Predict & control human behaviour??

The key words are 'misdirection' and 'showmanship', which lets him get away with anything...not to mention his genuine psychological feats (like "Colour blind").

Also, at least he's only exaggerating real skills, rather than saying he has ones that don't exist (like psychic ability, in my opinion).

Laurence wrote:
The key words are 'misdirection' and 'showmanship', which lets him get away with anything...not to mention his genuine psychological feats (like "Colour blind").

Also, at least he's only exaggerating real skills, rather than saying he has ones that don't exist (like psychic ability, in my opinion).

In your opinion. Not in mine. I believe that there is such a thing as intuition.

The key words are showmanship & misdirection? Why? Why are they the keywords and not power of suggestion and psychology?

Would "...fuses the power of intuition, psychic ability, misdirection and showmanship to predict and control human behaviour" be okay then?

Laurence wrote:
Also, at least he's only exaggerating real skills, rather than saying he has ones that don't exist (like psychic ability, in my opinion).

Grossly mistaken I am afraid.

I forget the gimmick/effect used but the black ball/white ball effect is clearly presented as "reading body language in order to determine who is telling the truth", which is of course, absolute cr*p.

I do not have a problem with this anymore than I have someone like Uri Gellar presenting himself as a psychic for entertainment purposes, whichever way you choose to present yourself however, there will always be someone else who will use it to exploit this with people that take it at face value. The original entertainer cannot be held completely responsible for the gullibility of the masses to believe those that wish to con them.

A_n_t wrote:

Laurence wrote:
Also, at least he's only exaggerating real skills, rather than saying he has ones that don't exist (like psychic ability, in my opinion).

Grossly mistaken I am afraid.

I said that reading body language is a genuine skill, he's just exaggerating his abilities in it, which you've just agreed. So what are you saying? That you don't believe reading body language to be real, or what?

A_n_t wrote:
I forget the gimmick/effect used but the black ball/white ball effect is clearly presented as "reading body language in order to determine who is telling the truth", which is of course, absolute cr*p.

If I'm thinking of the right routine, then yes it is a commercially available packet trick. Derren Brown presents it as a demonstration of reading body language, whereas I would present it as a psychic/intuitive experiment. This apparently makes me evil and I should be banned, whereas Derren is to be applauded. Funny world.

themagicwand wrote:Derren Brown presents it as a demonstration of reading body language, whereas I would present it as a psychic/intuitive experiment. This apparently makes me evil and I should be banned, whereas Derren is to be applauded. Funny world.

Are you implying I said that, or are you referring to other people? Personally, I was just providing an alternative viewpoint, if you were referring to me (not sure you were, but to clarify).

Laurence wrote:
Are you implying I said that, or are you referring to other people? Personally, I was just providing an alternative viewpoint, if you were referring to me (not sure you were, but to clarify).

Not you personally, no. It was a very broad statement and said with my tongue in my cheek (hence the winking smilie).

Reading body language is a skill that can be used to some degree, however exaggerating is just another way of saying lying.

In the specific effect I am referring to Mr Brown knows who has the black ball even before they have taken it, body language has nothing to do with it. Feel free however to ignore me on this and go and buy every book ever written on body language, psychology and NLP and prove me wrong.

Better still I know a qualified NLP practitioner who will give you a one to one training session in NLP (just like Derren uses) for only £2000 - Bargain.

Does Mr Geller's metallurgic power extend to anything other than thin pieces of stainless steel? Hard-as-hell titanium, for example, or maybe a nice, brittle piece of cast iron. It seems not. It's thin stainless steel all the way, in the form of cutlery, which makes the whole thing a bit obvious. My Granddad noticed that back in 1973. He also noticed that the drawing duplications were always the same basic shapes. But what's really interesting about Geller is his backing of any self-proclaimed psychic without ever meeting them. It stinks of vested interests. It certainly speaks volumes about the millions of people out there who want or need to believe in something. This leads to an uncomfortable question: Given that you do want to be rich, and believe me you do deep down, how far would YOU go in exploiting such people?