talkmagic.co.uk

mark lewis wrote:Being a professional magician doesn't necessarily mean you are any good at magic. It just means that you have figured out how to make a living at it which isn't quite the same thing. I have seen some pretty atrocious performers who make a living and in some cases a good one. .

This is so true in any walk of life, look at Emile Heskey for example.........

Seriously there is some very good advice to be read in this thread. I do get paid for performing magic but I don't think of myself as professional or even semi professional. I am just somebody who has a hobby I enjoy and can make enough to cover his costs and a bit.

Breaking in to any entertainment field as a full time pro, earning enough to live on properly, is a very tough thing to do.And as many of the posts here have said it is noot all about technical ability. You have to have a good business head and a business plan.

Going from being a fascinating and enjoyable spare time hobby to a full time job where income is extremely important must mean that the shine gets knocked off magic a little - or am I wrong?

I think you have to be right. Even those with 'dream jobs' must have some drudgery.
T.

Mandrake wrote:Going from being a fascinating and enjoyable spare time hobby to a full time job where income is extremely important must mean that the shine gets knocked off magic a little - or am I wrong?

It was never a hobby for me. My second public performance was for pay. So I don't know.

I do know journalism became far more fun when I gave it up as a profession, and just did it for a hobby. But I enjoy magic as a profession, and I never enjoyed journalism, so perhaps that says something? I take great pleasure in it.

When my dear old dad retired, he was on his own and took up a hobby of making model gypsy caravans, miniature carts and carriages etc - a great hobby and filled his days well. He was asked to appear on TV (with Roy Hudd no less!) to show his work and as a result had a lot of enquiries about making items for quite serious money. As he wasn't exactly well off he agreed to do them but soon regretted it as it meant his retirement hobby became a business and dictated his days and nights, weeks and months. Sadly, once he'd supplied all the orders he completely lost interest in making the models. I figured that might be similar to doing magic for a living after it being just a hobby.

I believe Mandrake is dead on correct. I envy the amateur magician incompetent as many of them may be. As soon as money enters the picture the fun goes out of the whole thing.

mark lewis wrote:As soon as money enters the picture the fun goes out of the whole thing.

I haven't found that.

But if you take the money out of the magic, then I believe I would love all interest, and the fun would go out of it then.

Tony. That is because you started off as a professional whereas everyone else started off as an amateur. And besides you are an Irishman and my experience with your countrymen is that they are not like other human beings.

Tony, I disagree that all you need to be a good magician is to be a good entertainer. The clue is in the word "magician"! If you can't fool people with magic, then you're not a magician, no matter how entertaining your act is.

There's always this argument about which is more important, magic or entertainment, but the question shouldn't exist because they are BOTH important. To be a quality magician, you need to have good magical skills, and good skills at engaging.

I've changed here from entertainment to engagement - because magic doesn't have to be nice, pleasant, funny or even entertaining. Good art is often dark, emotional, dramatic and uncomfortable. Magic can fit into those categories too.

Consider...
an engaging personality + sloppy sleights / moves = not a great magician.
technical mastery of moves + can't introduce themselves or talk to a group = not a great magician.

It's possible to earn a living without being a great magician, and if you are good at marketing, I believe you could get enough work without ever having to do a repeat booking. However, if you love magic then why would you want to do that? There aren't a lot of magicians and so doing poor shows brings down the perception of our art form for everyone else. How many times has someone told you that they 'hate magic' because they saw a poor magician once a few years back!
It makes sense to say that often but not always these are magicians with very little experience.
A great saying I heard once was, "It's better for people to say, 'you should be paid for this,' rather than 'you get paid for this?!'"

Mandrake, I see your point about some people wishing to keep things as a hobby. I think one thing to bear in mind as a full time magician, running a business is to try to keep that playful side of magic that got you into it in the first place.

I do magic as my full time job, and I strive for every show to be both magical and engaging.
I have the core of my business which is my regular bookings and provide the bulk of my income.
I also enjoy getting involved with projects that might not necessarily earn as much money now, but allow me to be creative with magic, to learn new things, to share magic with others and might be financially rewarding in the future.

My aims with magic are simple, to be the best magician I can, and to share magic with as many people as I can. Those drive me to improve both my own abilities and my business.

Jing, normally when someone says they hate magic because they saw a bad magician, whan they mean is they saw a boring magician. Most magicians - particularly card workers - are boring. The perception of the art is not down to a few bad performers, it is down to the vast majority of magicians, who think that moving a few cards and coins around a table or a close-up mat constitutes a performance.

Some have posted here saying that it is an insult to the art to be turning pro after a year. Think of this: it takes three years to train a teacher, a year to train a journalist, three years to train a lawyer, a couple of months to train a soldier or policeman, three years to train an accountant, less than a year to train technicians in various fields. What makes us so special that it takes years or decades of practice?

Look at Tom Binns. Doing magic two minutes yet a successful Radio 4 show and hit at the fringe.

I wish Tony wouldn't keep saying that card workers are "boring" even if it happens to be true. I can assure him that if I were doing card tricks the whole bloody place would be around me gasping and laughing and there are many people who can verify this, including many of his own countrymen. Of course I am an unmitigated genius and this may well have something to do with it.

But he shouldn't take it out on card magic. It is the performer's fault rather than the art form itself. ANY kind of magic can be boring if it is not done well. For example badly presented mentalism can be hell on earth to watch and yet in the right hands it is the most powerful form of magic there is.

Of course it is interesting to note that I was in a Canadian bookshop the other day and saw a magic book written by some chap called Anthony Galvin that Tony knows quite well. It had a chapter on BOTH card tricks and mentalism so I expect the author realised that there is an interest in the subject despite the assertion that both branches of the art are "boring". Oddly enough I knew a mentalist who hated card tricks until I persuaded him that it is the MAN doing it rather than the tricks themselves that are the important thing. Now he loves card tricks so much that he shows them wherever he goes. It really is such a convenient brand of magic because all you have to carry is a deck of cards and you have hours of material at your finger tips.

I also take issue with the assertion that being a "magician" and being an "entertainer" are two different things. To be a good entertainer is PART AND PARCEL of being a good magician. They cannot be divided into two separate things. They are a whole. If you don't have one you can't have the other. If you are good technically but you lack presentational skills you are NOT a good magician no matter how you kid yourself. Having said that, I do believe that entertainment comes first and the trick is secondary. If I were forced to choose I would far prefer to be not so hot as a technician if I still had the skill to entertain. However, I do believe you are better off if you are good at the magic too. Although it is secondary it is still very important.

And here is something that a lot of magicians don't seem to realise. It takes MORE skill to be a good entertainer than it does to be a good technician. It is much tougher to learn. Of course some people have it naturally and they should thank the Gods for that. The trouble is that this natural talent can make the performer a bit lazy and he or she neglects the technical and mechanical side of things. That is not good either.

Tony,

As it was me who first mentioned about magicians not being ready after a few months I shall answer your question. I don't know if Jing has the same take on this but here is my view.

I don't think anyone mentioned going pro after a year (I could be wrong though), but I was talking about after a few months. The quality of the magic is, I feel very important. When practising an effect we first usually work on the mechanics, when we have this down we rehearse weaving our presentation around it until the two become one. The mechanics (however simple) are a separate and quite different thing to the presentation (the entertainment). To be an ENTERTAINER requires only one of these "disciplines", to be a MAGICIAN requires both. To deceive, create wonder, astonishment, magic, requires more than just being able to entertain.

I'm my opinion creating wonder is the primary concern of the magician. Done well this is entertaining.

I know you're not a huge fan of Michael Vincent - I believe you mentioned on another thread. That you didn't find him particularly entertaining and you preferred Bill Malone ?). But there are a lot of people who do find him entertaining, myself included. Michael makes a good living performing for real people so there is definitely a market for this style of performance.
Which is why I asked what exactly was meant by "entertainment". What is entertaining to some, might be seen as boring to others and vice-versa.

I also notice that some would class themselves as entertainers first and foremost - that is fine. But in my opinion this is a very different thing to those who are a MAGICIAN first and foremost. The latter requires the quality of the magical content to be high, the former probably not so.

Many on here would see Tommy Cooper as a magician, I would say he was a comedian - who did some tricks.

There is a difference.


Jim

I also take issue with the assertion that being a "magician" and being an "entertainer" are two different things. To be a good entertainer is PART AND PARCEL of being a good magician. They cannot be divided into two separate things. They are a whole.

Mark, I agree.

I do believe that entertainment comes first and the trick is secondary.

Mark, I disagree. Clue - MAGICian.

To deceive, create wonder, astonishment, magic, requires more than just being able to entertain.

Jim, I agree.

I don't think we can put a time limit on it, as six months extensive training, plus a background in performance arts (public speaking / stand up comedy, maybe) is surely better than a year or three studying alone with a few performances to friends.

All I'm saying, is that when you are ready to 'turn pro' you should be skilled enough to perform your effects deceptively and engaging enough to hold an audience.

Like Jim, I don't find Michael Vincent to be as entertaining, but clearly some people too.

I too wish Tony would get off his high horse about card tricks. Yes, many many many magicians (or people who call themselves that) are not of a suitable standard, but not all of us, and it's not exclusively card magicians. There are terrible children's entertainers, and terrible mentalists too (shock horror! yes, it's true!).

I believe that magic is the art of engagement and in my shows I make spectators comfortable enough to be involved. One great way to get people involved is to have them select a card.

As mentioned elsewhere, turning pro is also about running a business. I've had a few calls recently asking me to turn up at late notice, because they were let down by another entertainer. That's not acceptable if you ask me.

One thing is pretty clear, each potential pro magician will have different criteria and talents/skills but will soon find out if they're good enough to be paid to perform!