talkmagic.co.uk

the_mog wrote:ok so if it will make you happy then everytime anyone mentions the rrtcm in place of a dvd then we'll just ban them because they obviously dont know what they're talking about.

That sounds like a reasonable way to sort this whole thing out.

If you are after a DVD Born to perform as everyone has said is a great investment as it has lots of sleights and some good routines.

However I would also recommend revolutionary card magic by Jay Sankey which can be found here http://www.penguinmagic.com/europe/product.php?ID=906 it is a bit expensive but you get so much for your money, the slights you learn are fabulous and he explains them well.

The routines you learn are all wonderful and most of them are not that difficult but will require practice and Jay Sankey is really rather amusing.

The menu on the DVD does suck a little but its still worth buying.

Regards

Dean

1. ok the fact that you automatically point out that rrtcm is a waste of time everytime its mentioned would make you narrow minded?

Ok lets look at your incredibly weak argument.
First it's based on misinformation because I don't suggest rrtcm is a waste of time every time it's mentioned. As a case in point very recently see http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/sutra52348.php&highlight=#52348

Here rrtcm was recommended along with a lot of other good resources and I posted but made no comment about rrtcm as it wasn't be hailed as "the way"

So Mog your argument is already undone, however the second point is just as invalid. Repeating something doesn't make you narrow. Lets imagine that someone kept posting that females are rubbish at magic and I kept replying that this wasn't the case. Am I by repeatedly challenging that view, narrow? On the contrary the person that claims females are poor at magic is the one being narrow. It's a ridiculous argument. So both strands of your argument are crass.

2. Noone did point out that timk SHOULD buy rrtcm after he mentioned that he didnt want a book, what happened was (as imentioned earlier) the thread went off topic and people dicussed the merits of the book... noone actually said "timk buy this book"

Another invalid argument, that again purposely misses the point. My argument was not that he was being told that he SHOULD buy the book but that you falsely claimed and I quote:

noone actually recommended it after timk asked for "Is there anything that is equivalent to the Royal Road To Card Magic but in DVD format ? "

Mog, they did recommend it and it's plain for everyone to see and no amount of twisting the words changes that clear fact.

and what the hell are you talking about me joining a religious forum for? the point i was making was that everyone is entitled to their own opinion without people ranting and raving about it like you do everytime someone mentions the rrtcm.

Because you used the analogy of not trying to convince people not to read the Bible as a reason I shouldn't comment on rrtcm on a magic forum. Seems obvious to me.

But as usual it now descends into another of your "im right and everyone else is wrong" games and the whole point of the thread is lost.

Nope I'm not claiming everyone else is wrong, actually a lot of people agree with my position and primarily Mog I'm just claiming YOU are wrong, though I'm also clearly at Odds with two other posters on this thread. Yet another of your twists Mog.

ok so if it will make you happy then everytime anyone mentions the rrtcm in place of a dvd then we'll just ban them because they obviously dont know what they're talking about.

If you can't actually give a sound argument for your position, resorting to childish comments doesn't help any more than creating straw man arguments.

Mog your position has been completely exposed as baseless you really have no leg left to stand on, I'm sure you won't admit to being wrong but neither can you answer the points I've made with any validity, so you will just have to refuse to continue or delete my post. However if you want to continue to give mindless arguments that are easily refuted I'll be happy to do that.

personally i dont feel that my position is exposed at totally baseless and i also feel that i am within my rights to dispute the fact. i certainly wont admit i am wrong because i feel i am justified in what i say. The fact of the matter remains that a lot of people will always refer to rrtcm as a good place to start in card magic is simply because it is! you can rant and rave about it all you like but thats how it is.

Nope I'm not claiming everyone else is wrong, actually a lot of people agree with my position and primarily Mog I'm just claiming YOU are wrong, though I'm also clearly at Odds with two other posters on this thread. Yet another of your twists Mog.

you ARE claiming that everyone else is wrong when you say that rrtcm is a waste of time. If it was such a waste of time or a bad read or whatever do you honestly think it would still be in publication? do you honestly think that it would be sold purely because "so and so" says its the ONLY way to learn. Of course it wouldnt, THIS is the point im trying to make but due to your narrow mindedness you cant grasp it. It sells because it is good at what it does. and since your so keen on facts you'll find that IS a fact!

If one of those people explicitly tells you they find books difficult, don't try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there

If one of those people tell you they think the rrtcm is the Way. dont try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there.

Mog is your first language English?

You really are unbelievable, again and again you misrepresent my argument since your unable to deal with what I'm saying and knock down the argument you pretend I'm making. So I'm not sure if you simply can't understand the clear sense of what I'm saying or simply purposely misunderstanding it?

I haven't argued that rrtcm is a waste of time, my argument is that it is not the best method for everyone and should not be treated as if it is.

i certainly wont admit i am wrong because i feel i am justified in what i say

Mog do you at least accept you were wrong when you claimed that no one had recommended rrtcm after it was mentioned he didn't want a book?

You see everyone but everyone can see you are wrong, if you won't even admit your wrong on a point as clear as this it's no wonder it's like swimming in treacle.

The fact of the matter remains that a lot of people will always refer to rrtcm as a good place to start in card magic is simply because it is!

Yeah for some people. The fact of the matter is that this is not my argument, though I do accept it's easier to pretend it is so that you have some chance of winning the debate which appears to be all you really want to do. I assume this since you argue against arguments I haven't made.

you ARE claiming that everyone else is wrong when you say that rrtcm is a waste of time. If it was such a waste of time or a bad read or whatever do you honestly think it would still be in publication?

I'm not claiming it's a waste of time, I'm claiming it's not the best place to start for everyone and when someone specifically asks for suggestions but not for books, I'm arguing that still feeling the need to recommend it and going further and suggesting that people who don't learn from books are somehow less competant is plain wrong.

If one of those people tell you they think the rrtcm is the Way. dont try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there.

No Mog they are wrong. They can say it was or is the best way for them, they can not say it is The best way full stop. That is definitely 100% wrong and I'd suggest anyone that tries to argue that Rrtcm is "The Way" is Stupid. Mog there is no "way" different people will find different methods work better for them.

Quote:
If one of those people tell you they think the rrtcm is the Way. dont try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there.


No Mog they are wrong. They can say it was or is the best way for them, they can not say it is The best way full stop. That is definitely 100% wrong and I'd suggest anyone that tries to argue that Rrtcm is "The Way" is Stupid. Mog there is no "way" different people will find different methods work better for them.

hehe this is my point exactly, its ok for you to use the quote "If one of those people explicitly tells you they find books difficult, don't try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there" but when i substitute the words "they think the rrtcm is the Way" then the arguement becomes totally wrong? just goes to show that your only purpose here is to continue this nonsense and i for one wont be party to it any more

No Mog it is pure basic Logic.

If someone says it is "the way" that is an exclusive statement, it means that there is no other way and is a very narrow attitude. It doesn't take into account that some people might learn better with a different way.

No one can make the claim that any particular method is "the way" for everyone the most they can say is it is the best way for them.

Can you not understand this Mog, Cos I really can't understand why you seem incapable of grasping such a simple concept.

Lets come at it from another angle. The person that states as he did in the post that he finds it easier to learn from Dvds is not saying this is "the way" to learn and that people that use books are somehow lazy or unable to concentrate or any other negative attributes, he is simply stating he has a particular preference for his own learning.

The person that says that rrtcm is the way, is saying that this is "the way" everyone should learn, as it's the best way. In this case even commenting on the lack of patience with people that can't learn from books.

That Mog is a narrow attitude and is wrong because not everyone is suited to learning at their best from a book, just as on the other side of the coin some people will much prefer to learn from a book. If you don't understand this then I give up as I really can't think of a way of simplifying it any further. This whole thread seems to prove the difficulty of learning from the written word.

your right , it is basic logic..thats why i wrote "they THINK.." which makes it purely a matter of personal preference and in which case it CAN be a true statement since it ISNT claiming it as fact....dont see why you cant grasp this

Mog are you now saying that the person is only saying they think it's the way for themselves personally or that they think it's the way for everyone?

If the former you've changed your argument since I have not argued against anyone suggesting rrtcm is the best way for them. My argument has been against people suggesting it's the best way for others even when they have clearly been told that the person has difficulty learning from books.

So I assume you must mean that someone should be able to say that they THINK that rrtcm is the best way for everyone and that because they have said they "thought it" we can not say they are wrong?

Is that your position?

P.S

For anyone that has read this discussion from this thread only, there were posts prior to this thread that give is a better context and which you will have read quotes from. This part was deleted from the previous thread and moved here by Mog as it was felt it was off topic. This is true though it does make my first post look rather harsh as there is no context to it.

ok, so wahts this fight about,
one likes a rrtcm and another doesnt, if ive read the posts right(:P small chance)
so what, some people like ellusionist, some people hate ellusionist, this is just personal pref. i think?

Yeah I see where your coming from. Let me try to give you some background.

Rrtcm is a book that many have found helpful and indeed the best way for them to start in card magic. On the other hand many like myself when starting out found it to be dreadfully boring and difficult to learn from. Those people often find that DVds such as Born to perform are a better place to start. That's not to say that some of these Dvd people might ultimately find Rrtcm useful as well.

Ok I've had an issue as have quite a few others with the fact that when a newbie comes on and asks what's the best way to start there are quite a few people that don't just recommend Rrtcm but almost make out you are some how a lesser magician if you use another route. Now in this case someone asked the normal question but actually stated they didn't learn well from books and prefered Dvds. The very next post still recommended Rrtcm. I made a brief comment that in light of the request I thought this was the last thing that should be recommended and I recommended instead a Dvd. The poster that had recommended rrtcm then made another post in which he admitted he had little patience with those that didn't like learning from books and that he saw it as an inability to concentrate. For me this was the last straw and so you see my reply in this thread ( without all that context )

My position is that I'm happy for anyone to suggest Rrtcm as a good place to start but not to denegrate those that disagree. So for example I don't even like comments that say if you want a proper foundation you need to start with books. This implies that you won't have a proper foundation if you follow the advice of others that suggest for example a Dvd and is just plain wrong. However as I've said in this particular case it was even stronger than that because the person that asked the question specifically asked for a recomendation that wasn't a book and in fact it turnes out he has Rrtcm and finds it difficult as indeed many do.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

OK, listen.

Both of you, stop it. This thread has degenerated into a meaningless babble of insults. As far as I can see you are both arguing the same point from different sides - your arguments don't contradict each other.

Happy Toad thinks that RRTCM is not the be all and end all of card magic, which is absolutely correct. He also thinks that people who claim that it is are wrong, which is correct.

Mog is saying that RRTCM is a good book for some (though I assume not for all) people and that you shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it - which is also correct!

Correct me if I'm wrong, people, but isn't this a case of "you're right, you're right, and you're right too"? Aside from the personal insults, what is the actual argument?

Kati

Ok Kat here is where it's at and why I bother going on about this.

Mog is defending something I feel strongly against.

I hate new people being recommended Rrtcm as if it's the only way. My experience has been a lot of new people completely wasting their money on a resource that is not suitable for them. I detest people being made to feel they are lesser magicians or lazy if they don't start out with Rrtcm or at least some other book. I can't stand the elitist attitude that these people have. My fight is against that.

When people ask about the best way to start I feel we ought to suggest 3 main methods ie Books, Dvds and self working tricks. Lets tell them which are some of the best books, Dvds and tricks but lets not suggest that there is only one way to get a proper foundation and it starts with the Royal Road to Hard magic.

Yes, I agree with the point that RRTCM is not necessarily the way to go in card magic and I'm fairly sure that if you asked mog what he thought of the matter, he would agree with this. However, he seems to be reading your posts as if you meant that it was no good at all, which is certainly possible, given the level of aggression here.

I definitely agree that there should be a response mentioning both books and DVDs, and talking about the respective advantages and disadvantages.

I've made a post in the Intro forum about this.

Kati

However, he seems to be reading your posts as if you meant that it was no good at all,

Only possible if you read what isn't there since I have never said this.

I do however believe it is useless for some people and I'm one of them. It was more likely to put me off magic than help me when I followed the advice that it was the best way to start in magic. I've spoken to many others that have felt the same.
However I have never written it off or implied any such thing for everyone and have even mentioned that I've recommended it in one case and once you've got going I'd go so far as to say it is an excellent resource.

What I want though is a more balanced approach to our recomendations and certainly to get rid of any elitism about using books rather than any other method.