talkmagic.co.uk

I was a little taken aback at the poll options considering the lack of information in the first post, and even at that point not knowing if the information was true or not. Anyway, thanks to Goldfish we can now see the full explanation.

Personally, I sympathize with Jay even if he was warned about Penguin in the early days. However, what people in Jay's position must start to do is to take these matters through the legal systems as well as asking for our support (which I will give) in boycotting the dealer.

Dealers, and other companies that do this just don't care about boycots. They know that people have short memories. They know that the laymen who want to start learning magic or just want a trick or two actually make up the majority of their orders and as long as they're at the top of a web seach list for magic dealers then they won't really miss repeated business that much.

Companies like Penguin need to be taken to Court and then ruled against for breach of contract and made to pay. The costs associated with this if they lose are what will really frighten companies such as Penguin.

So yes, we will probably do our bit but please ensure that someone like Jay who has a high profile name doesn't just rely on our actions.

dat8962 wrote:I was a little taken aback at the poll options considering the lack of information in the first post, and even at that point not knowing if the information was true or not. Anyway, thanks to Goldfish we can now see the full explanation.

Sorry about that Dat ... i should have explained that the Poll was added after we recieved the information from Goldfish.

Rob

Ah - that explains all and now seems fairer.

Now I've heard people that were against Penguin before but i thought they simply didn't like them. Now I can see that the most global magic store may be a theif. Hum... I'll try to fight for Jay's cause, but I've been a Penguin since the beginning.

PENGUIN STRIKES BACK

Here's Penguin's recent reply to Sankey's email.

Jay Sankey has recently issued a public statement in which he urges customers NOT to shop at Penguin Magic. Why?

1) PRICE. Penguin Magic refuses to fix prices. We believe that our customers (smart shoppers every last one of them) deserve to pay the best possible price. We almost never charge the manufacturer's suggested retail price. That makes some manufacturers upset because they get complaints from other dealers that they can't compete with our prices. Penguin Magic is the world's most efficient seller of magic, and that means we can afford to have the world's lowest prices. Other dealers may complain, but our customers love us for it.

2) QUALITY. Penguin Magic insists that suppliers provide us with the highest quality magic props and DVDs possible. We've repeatedly urged Sankey Magic to raise their quality standards, but unfortunately they've been unable to do so. Recently we posted a warning on Jay Sankey's Anytime, Anywhere (DVD) in which we stated that "Due to poor case design, this DVD may become dislodged during shipment." This warning may not have made Sankey Magic happy, but it was important to us to be up-front and honest with our customers about our quality concern.

3) TOO MUCH SANKEY MAGIC. Penguin Magic believes there is just "TOO MUCH SANKEY" being put on the market. We've repeatedly urged Sankey Magic to reduce the number of new releases they put out and focus instead on improving the quality of their items. Last year we were able to successfully convince Sankey Magic to adjust their release schedule from 12 new products per year to 8 new products. Sankey Magic may not have liked our cautious words, but our customers (and Sankey Magic's worldwide network of dealers) deserve the very best of Sankey Magic, not just the very newest. We pride ourselves in having an enormous selection, but TOO MUCH is TOO MUCH.

Specific issues between Penguin Magic and Sankey Magic are completely confidential. We haven't been directly notified from Jay or Sankey Magic that there has been any change in our relationship. Jay's a great guy, but we just couldn't see eye-to-eye with him about price, quality, and quantity of Sankey Magic. Our deal with Sankey Magic appears not to be working out anymore. We're sorry for that. For you (our customer) this will mean more magic from different inventors and lower prices on Sankey Magic products. We very much hope that Sankey Magic will reconsider their position and work with us to continue the relationship. Either way, we've got a lot of exciting magic planned for our customers.

You can count on Penguin Magic to offer you the lowest prices in the world. As always, we stand behind each and every one of our products with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Thanks for being our customer. Please let us know if there's anything at all we can do to help you achieve your goals in magic.

Please give us a call or send us an email if you have any questions for us. We're always here for you.

I have to say I find that explanation hard to swallow.

1) Price cutting is fine for the customer but at some point, sooner or later, the other dealers will stop selling becuase they have different overheads and can't make a living. Result: less choice long term for the customer in return for a few quid off in the short term.

2) An iffy DVD case? Come on, surely Sankey Magic don't make them, they buy them in. Anyway, proper outer/despatch packaging will minimise any shifting of product. Note that the only gripe is to do with the case, not the product yet it's referred to as a quality issue. Nice bit of misdirection, methinks.

3) Too much Sankey Magic? Well, they don't have to sell it all! And since when does the tail wag the dog/the shop tell the producer how much or how little to make? They can adjust their purchasing/selling pattern to suit themselves but telling the guy to make less, thus reducing the range for all the other dealers as well, is going way overboard.

No doubt there are issues on both sides here and hopefully all this will blow over without expensive legalities. I still don't see anything there to persuade me to shop at Penguin though.

i am staying with them, never let me down cept with the stripper deck, so yeh

Arrrrg I was about to order Born to Perform! Last order me thinks...


I do have some things to say about this though. I think his RRP for his stuff is pretty good. But try finding a dealer in the UK who actually charges that. They always seem to stack a few extra pounds on the price. Ok ok they are close to the RRP but why should I have to pay extra just because I live in the UK? Ok I'm guessing there are import costs, but I still don't think it is justified. Anyhow that has nothing to do with Jay really, I just thought I would have a bit of a rant

Blade Master wrote:2) QUALITY. Penguin Magic insists that suppliers provide us with the highest quality magic props and DVDs possible. We've repeatedly urged Sankey Magic to raise their quality standards, but unfortunately they've been unable to do so. Recently we posted a warning on Jay Sankey's Anytime, Anywhere (DVD) in which we stated that "Due to poor case design, this DVD may become dislodged during shipment." This warning may not have made Sankey Magic happy, but it was important to us to be up-front and honest with our customers about our quality concern.

As much as I hate to admit this one is TRUE...at least for the "Anytime, Anywhere" DVD.....I ordered mine elsewhere and besides that DVD I ordered 3 more...all of the DVD's in the package were in perfect condition except Jay's..it was a wrack...the box was broken in 10 places...so yeah...the quality of the box was/is cr*p....

The response fails to address the main underlying point of Jay's message, which is that, if Penguin are ordering so little from him, how are the orders people are placing being met?

Maybe one of the most popular magic producers ever simply doesn't seel units, but it seems fishy to me.

As to price fixing, the point was that they had a specific agreement with Jay that they would charge what everyone else does. They have gone back on this deal. If they had no intention of following it, for the reasons stated, then why did they agree in the first place?

Poor DVD cases are a problem, but surely a very minor one. Hardly an explanation for the main thrust of Mr. Sankey's message.

The answer about Jay producing too much stuff is mind-boggling. First, they seem to pretty much stock it all, so how is it relevant? Second, surely the demand from Penguin's customers is what should be driving what they buy in. If Sankey's stuff is popular (and it is), then why complain about him producing lots. That's madness (or untrue).

It seems now that this is Penguin's word vs Jay's word, given the reply from PM. However, given that PM have not addressed the fact that they are buying less Sankey products but still selling them, and the whole business with Magic Bunny and PM, I think it's safe for us all to say no to Penguin Magic from here on in. I'll still be watching all their demo videos, but I'll definitely be buying from other dealers from now on.

Thinking about what Jay said about 'In A Flash,' I remember one member of TalkMagic (Magic Mark, I think) mentioning that the gaffed cards he received with his 'In a Flash' were a slightly different colour to the rest of the cards. Also, I think the instructions I have for 'In a Flash' look like they're scanned and printed using a computer printer, rather than a professional printing job.

Who knows?

Let's hope no more creators are sh*t on like Jay has been... I've got my fingers crossed that Oz Pearlman can free himself too.

Part-Timer wrote:The response fails to address the main underlying point of Jay's message, which is that, if Penguin are ordering so little from him, how are the orders people are placing being met? They do say that they are buying from "authorized Sankey Magic dealers" - I wonder if it's possible that they simply are buying from the cheapest place they can find instead of wholesale? I can't think why but it would answer the question. I'm not arguing in favour of Penguin or anything, just pointing it out.

Zack wrote:I've got my fingers crossed that Oz Pearlman can free himself too. Me too - unfortunately if he can't PM will have a monopoly as Born to Perform is possibly the best beginners card magic DVD around. I was considering asking him if he sold Born To Perform, but I decided not to...

Kati

If something really is exclusive to PM and you have to have it then there isn't much choice but to buy from them so I wouldn't worry too much in that respect. Where you have a choice then you can be selective and vote with your conscience or your wallet!

This idea of PM not ordering JS stock but still having it in their bestseller's list might be incompetence or spin on their part, but it also looks suspicious. If I make a unique product and you drop your orders for it but still claim to sell tons of it, my mind would naturally turn to thoughts of piracy. Very unsophisticated piracy, at that. It might, of course, be spin to generate sales (Everyone else has bought this product so you should too). The number of people who have had problems with PM's service isn't small, so their reputation might finally be damaging business.

It may be that PM have innocently found a sub-wholesale supply of JS products enabling them to sell for less than the RRP - that unbeknown to them has fallen off the back of a magic shop somewhere.

To test this, I suggest Jay tries getting a friend to order one of the effects he knows PM have not been ordering from him but still claim is selling like hot cakes to check fro a cheap immitation. A more thorough solution might be to use an invisible marking system, supply them with a new effect before general release and later perform this "friends" test to see if the mark is on the delivered purchase.

If it isn't, call the cops.

Oh, I am feeling devious today...

It may be that PM have innocently found a sub-wholesale supply

Interesting. Whilst I make no insinuations whosoever, does anyone else remember the hoo-hah with a certain large Department Chain Store (no names but the letters M and S come to mind!) a few years back? They started dealing with a small 2 person firm who had designed and produced some rather natty display and storage racks which were ideal for the stores so a contract was placed with them and several hundred were made and delivered. Towards the end of the contract the firm had great difficulty in talking to anyone as to whether the contract would be extended, renewed or whatever - in effect they were just ignored completely. Suspicions were aroused when the rack designers noticed that new racks were still being fitted in the stores and they weren't made by them. I believe the 'explanation' was that the Chain Store had found some other firm willing to take over production at a reduced price and they were buying all the components from the same sources etc so the products were identical but the designers were elbowed out of the picture by the big boys who would be saving a measly two thousand or so. Like I say, I'm not suggesting that this is the case here but, if I were Jay, I'd be touching base with all my suppliers just to casually make sure that all stock and production is accounted for.